Integrated Electronics System

[Pat Anderson]

Well! Hasn't this been lively! I don't think there have been smugglers or pirates in the San Juans since Prohibition though...could be wrong about that too of course!

[starcrafttom]

Back to the subject at hand. I am a person who does not get lost. I always know what way home is and can always find my way out of the woods, city, and trouble with out any map or compass. I am always looking at where I am going and where I have been. I love maps and can look and study them all night. I will always read maps for new areas before I go there. I take pride in knowing where I am and where the rest of the world is in comparison. With that said I have noticed something weird with many people I fish with. On a clear day, in good weather, they cannot tell me where we are. Even thou they were looking out the window the whole time we were in route, they cannot tell me were home is. Even when we can see it. Do any of you have this problem? I wonder how many people with map and compass can really use them? If you do not know where you are, then you cannot get home with a map and compass. But if I get hit in the head my wife can go to the c-80 and find her way home by following the route function. I keep the compass and map on board, but having the c- 80 is really comforting.

[Valkyrie]

Larry,

Thanks for the reply. How close is your GPS to the compass and does it affect the compass rading?

Nick
Valkyrie

[El and Bill]

Of course, you can disagree, Pat -- But, sorry, the integrated system is NOT an improvement.
Here's why -- you state "The advantages of having the radar targets on-screen and shown relative to boat position and land masses would seem hard to deny - and the downside is really no more dangerous than having separate radar and chartplotter." Well, Pat, my radar shows targets on the radar screen and they are relative to boat position and land masses. My chartplotter shows my position relative to boat position and land masses. My sounder shows my depth, and we have had to navigate by that alone, as have many cruisers in the days before fancy electronics. So, I have three instruments on three separate screens in front of me in my pilot position, any one of which I can navigate with if others fail. Sorry, Pat, that simply isn't the same as one instrument that can fail.
And, as far as integrating the three sets of information, that's our brains do that.
Few C-Dorys we have seen have two mounted chartplotters, or two mounted radars, or two mounted sounders. So instrument redundancy is with handheld GPS or laptops -- every try to navigate with either one in a heavy sea in a C-Dory? -- compared with a mounted instrument?
Yes, we have paper charts and compass aboard, and know how to take a bearing -- used to navigate that way all the time, and it wasn't easy compared with electronic navigating. An inexperienced boater in a fog or night or storm will have a tough time with it, as do most even with long experience.
On our boat, we have a stand alone radar, a stand alone chartplotter, and a stand alone sounder -- THREE electronic instuments, mounted and operating. Either of two will easily get me home, and the third with effort and luck. Yes, we have a compass and charts and we can use them, but under many conditions they aren't easy to use. And, we suspect, new boaters with experience only with an integrated single display, will be in a serious position given a screen failure. Therefore, in our opinion, an integrated system is dangerous. The slight advantage of seeing everything within a six inch rectangle instead of three rectangles is insignificant compared with the danger that could ensue with a failure of that one screen.
An integrated system is, in our opinion, a marketing gimmick with a gizmo. I rest my case, Counsellor.

[Bluecrab]

To paraphrase Daniel Boone - I've never been lost...but I've been mighty confused at times!

[Larry H]

Nick,

My GPS is a Garmin 45 hand held in a mount on the dash to the left of the compass. Its about 6-8 inches away( I will have to measure to be sure) and doesn't affect the compass.

[Helen O]

Bill

If you were given a choice between 2 integrated systems that were completely separate from each other or 2 non integrated systems with 6 screens (2 each for radar, sonar, gps) which would you prefer?

[Luna C]

I have a separate compass and depth finder. I also have an integrated chart plotter and radar. I probably would never have purchased the radar w/o the overlaying feature. I do NOT have the skills to read radar! I will turn the radar only choice on to practice a bit, but I don't use it enough to be comfortable with it.

I suppose it depends on where and when you boat. In the San Juans with occasional trips to Canada in the summer vs being a regular long voyager. Familiar waters vs exploring, etc. I don't need charts in the waters off Everett (watch out for those sand bars!), near Petersburg AK, or in the San Juans. I know these areas very well. Princess Louisa was a different matter! Familiarizing yourself with the weather report, bays & coves to hide if the weather turns, tides & currents, alternate routes, etc, BEFORE the trip is a good idea!

If you risk traveling in the fog, dark, or stormy weather on a regular basis, you may need redundancy. For short fair weather trips, compass and depth finder should be good!

I like the integrated unit for what I do. I do think it is easy to get addicted to it though. Some even have wind and tide info! Don't forget how to use your other tools.

[Bess-C]

This thread is great! It's like sitting in a bar and listening to friends arguing the merits of their Ford, Chevy and Dodge Ram pickups.

We've had the Garmin 2006 and really like it. It is easy to use and reliable after we got the last software upgrade. The Blue Charts are great. Others may match them but I'm not sure that any others can beat them.

That being said, Bess-C is at EQ right now getting the C-80 system installed. I was going to add a Furuno stand alone radar to the Garmin 2006. However, I've become convinced of the advantages of the integrated system, especially if you have the fluxgate compass that allows the MARPA feature. I also have a handheld gps that will be on at the same time as the C80. I really like maps and charts so I always have them on hand for planning and on the boat for backup. Our compass is mounted in front of the middle window and that seems to work fine for me.

We also have a separate fuel tank for the kicker motor,a kicker that can be easily started by hand and a hand held vhf. It sometimes seems a little obsessive to have so much redundancy, but we like to go places alone that are off the beaten path.

I admire those of you who can dead reckon in fog and rolling seas, but I'm not one of you. I don't plan on going out if I know I'll need radar, but I want it in case I'm caught out in bad visibility. The ability of the MARPA enabled C80 to give speed and direction of the moving targets around me all on my chartplotter sounds too good to pass up.
Lyle

[starcrafttom]

Bill, and those that like redundant systems. I the main cause of failed electronics aboard boats is, drum roll please, loss of power. Unless you are going to have 3 batteries on board, I have two; them multiple systems are just as prone to going out as an integrated system. That’s why I believe in maps and compass. Also you only have to get to a safe place to anchor up or dock to make repairs. Its not like you are going to navigate the in side passage at night in the fog after your system goes out. And I doubt that anyone here is going to do that even when our systems are operating correctly. Redundant systems are for large ships that travel day and night or global travelers that can make Seattle to san fran with out a fuel stop. I don’t know anyone here that travels for very long or far after dark. I believe that a good integrated system is easier to use and takes up less space. And that maps and compass along with a hand held gps are more then enough back up. Hell that’s all I have been using for the last 20 years and a lot less for most of that time.

[gljjr]

[Sea Wolf]

This is a fascinating subject! Some people seem as though they never loose track of where they are, and others, at the other extreme, have to be clued in to find the way home if they make one wrong turn during the day.

I've thought about it before, and concluded some of us have, since a very young age, learned to keep track of exactly where we are at all times and never lose track in the continuous process of reconoitering our surroundings. These people learn to not only keep track, but develop maps in their heads of their location and where they've been. It's mostly just that we've trained ourselves that way because of our experiences as children, I believe. We can read the clues of sun position, shadows, time of day, wind and cloud movement (sailing develops these to the nth degree!!!), and even the stars and moon at night, and have a spatial awareness of the relative location of everything.

If you really have this sense, it's really disturbing to momentarily loose track of where you are, or to find out that you're somewhere else than you thought you were, or even that you're turned around a bit. Sure helps to read wind shifts when you're sailboat racing!

Why others don't develop this as well, or in some cases, apparently not at all, I can't say. but maybe it just hasn't been that important to them in how their childhood experiences were structured. No need to keep track = no developed ability.....??? I do think it is, for sure, an adaptation or application of our spatial intelligence as well as other aptitudes. Joe.

[CAVU]

Joe,
You're right it is very fascinating. Some of the previous posts underscore the fact that we all boat in many different places for many different reasons. I also thought that I could keep myself well oriented even in fog. However my experience for many years fishing out of Ucluelet has changed my mind. The fishing areas are anywhere from 5-20 miles offshore in open water with little structure. When the fog rolls in, it requires much more then a general heading to shore to find your way home. There is too much drift and wind over greater distances. Finding a shoreline is easy, but if you miss it a little you could wander around Barkley Sound for days trying to find your way home. Another factor not often considered: when your fishing and trolling around in circles most of us are not paying too much attention to our exact position. If you are cruising from point A to B you will almost always know exactly where you are should fog start to develop. I would really hate to make a 20 mi run back home using only my compass and a chart even if I had a perfect fix to start the run.

[starcrafttom]

gljjr I did not know that we married sisters. We left everret in the day light and cruised to poss. point to fish and watch whales. when we got there , a place my wife has been several times with me, she points at shore and ask if this is hat island? WHAT!! I mean I love her and all but how does some one get that lost in 20 mins when they were looking out the window the whole way and have been there before. i just dont get it.
Cavu.. One of the things that i like about the c-80 system is the auto pilot. I too have a habit of turning when Iam looking at the screen or at a distance objects. The auto pilot will keep you from doing that and allow you to be looking around for shore , ship, ice bergs and the like while on a straight course.

[Sawdust]

Love this thread! We all seem to boat in different areas, different weather conditions, different restrictions to visibility, so one gadget just doesn't fit all.

Because I've been an unlimited tonnage ocean master for over 50 years and have trekked back and forth to AK from WA in all kinds of weather, I'm interested in anything concerning navigational safety. If a skipper is going to boat at night, or in the fog or poor visibility-- have paper charts aboard and know how to use them. True, it ain't easy in the dark in a bouncing boat, but sure beats swimming.

I like redundancy, and most of the old time skippers I know feel the same way. Electronic gadgets can fail - and always seem to fail when needed most. Relying solely on electronics just isn't smart unless you boat in CAVU weather. And in that case you probably don't need the electronics.

I absolutely love my C-80 Raynav. It's easy to use, has excellent radar, okay map, and the best depth sounder I've ever used. The capability of overlaying the radar on the chart is a really great tool for those who boat in restricted visibility, as we do here out of Deception Pass. I've had Furuno, Raytheon, and Simrad radars aboard my boats the past few years and haven't had one fail yet - but I prepare and know it can happen.

I don't think an integrated system is any more dangerous than individual units if backed up. My compass is remote, and gyro controlled, to avoid all the manetic junk in the dash area. A little GPS handheld is certainly a good backup, and I use one often as a primary tool just to keep in practice. Paper charts should be aboard, though, and if boating in unfamiliar waters they should be required safety material.

Dusty