C-Dory 25 vs C-Dory 22

[tpbrady]

I didn't want to leave the simplicity of the 22 for a 25, but with a couple of hours of work a 25 can be simplified, remove the hot water heater and replace the marine toilet with a porta potti. After those two changes the only downside is fuel consumption, but that is an issue in physics. The plus sides I see:

a. Range, 250 or more miles is possible.
b. Speed, when on step it cruises most efficiently around 25-27 mph, seas permitting.
c. Space, a lot more.
d. Comfort, 3 foot confused seas in a 22 results in a lot of motion. I have thrown myself out of the seat in a 22 a couple of times. Not yet in the 25.

[thataway]

I have to disagree a little with Tom about 3 foot "confused seas"--either boat is uncomfortable in true 3 foot seas--and although the 25 is heavier, you can still be thrown around in it.

I am not sure what Tom means about being "on step"--the C Dory 25 is a modified semi dory, which planes at 15 to 17 mph--it does not have a stepped hull. The cruising speed depends on the engine. Some were powered with the smaller block 130 and if loaded for cruising--speed will be in the 17 knot category. With the 135 or 150 hp engines, then in the 20's. If you go to 200 hp, then you may get to 30 mph.

As for towing. My son towed the C Dory 25 regularly about 5 miles from a storage lot to a ramp, never exceeding 30 mph with a Ford Explorer which had a tow capacity in the 5500 lb range. With brakes on both axels it was a satisfactory vehicle--but we both agreed we would never take it on the freeway or freeway speeds. I have also moved the 25 a mile or so at a time with the Honda Pilot--again at speeds up to 20 mph, using a lower gear (tow rating 4500 lbs boat--3500 lbs house trailer) So if you want to tow on back roads just to a close storage place--it is possible. Check with insurance, and legal issues before you consider this. On the other hand--I think one of the best tow vehicles is the Ford Diesel Excursion in the 2000 to 2003 or so, with the 7.3 L Northstar engine. These are cheap, give great towing capacity and tow the 25 well.

We went from the 22 to the 25, mostly because of the room in the forward bunk. Remember that neither of these boats have a true double from the dinette. (I slept in the cockpit of a sailboat, with a tarp over the boom from the time I was 8 years old--parents slept in the cabin. So with children you want to consider if you will expand the bunk, put two of them up forward with your wife, and you sleep on the dinette. Also you can remove the port side bulkhead allowing more sleeping room up there, and easier access. I put a cushion on the foot well area of the Tom Cat for forward facing seat--you could do the same with the C Dory 25, and an opened bulkhead.

Maintenance--not a not more in the 25 than the 22, but there is a lot more "room" in the boat...go for the 25.

[tpbrady]

Bob,

To clarify, the weight of the 25 tends to slow down the motion of the boat in confused seas. I agree it's not comfortable in the confusion of waves going everywhere, but the 25 is noticeably less uncomfortable.

On the speed comment, the 25 is more comfortable going faster than the 22. I always found the 22 comfort range between 22 and 24 mph. Faster than that and the boat started to feel loose on the water with the boat wandering about the desired track. The 25 hits the same comfort spot about 3 mph faster, at least with my engine and loading and even at 30 mph the 25 tracks very well. My best fuel economy when running is around 25-27 mph while in the 22 it was 22-24 mph.

[grutledge]

Thanks for all the input! I have decided to go with the 25. Going to see it in the next couple of days.

[thataway]

I cannot comment on the speed of the 25, since ours with the 130 Honda was limited to less than 20 mph top speed. It is interesting that different people find different speeds most efficient. Some have posted that they run their 22's at 15 to 17 and find that most efficient. There are a lot of variables.

On our 22, we didn't feel that the boat got "squirrelly until it was about 30 mph. Our experience in both the 22 and 25 that when yo got to true 2 foot waves, that there was gong to be some pounding and uncomfortable rides in either boat. Don't discount that the waterline beam on the 25 is wider than on the 22 also--which may affect the ride, as well as weight.

[JamesTXSD]

Both boats are great for what they are. The key is to pick the boat that will do the job best for the way YOU will use the boat. Human nature being what it is, most of us will think we each made the best choice and recommend the boat we have. I find it interesting to get the opinions of those who have owned both boats. And, in reading those opinions, most who have owned both sizes moved UP from the 22 to the 25. While I'm sure there are some who have, I don't recall many folks moving from the 25 to the 22.

I like to think of the 25 as... more of a good thing.

This discussion comes up about once every six weeks or so (OK, maybe more often than that ), and it frequently becomes a discussion of "the $30,000 dollar enclosed head." Of course, it is SO much more than that... most 25s are equipped with more amenities than 22s, but you can make each boat whatever you want... to a point. I know there is at least one 22 that the owner modified by eliminating the dinette so he could fit in an enclosed head. A bit extreme from my perspective, but as I said: "you really can make each boat whatever you want."

The 25 is larger in width, height, and length. 6'10" standing height in the cabin; room for two normal size people to move around each other in the aisle; more storage; a wider v-berth; hot and cold pressure water; a 110/30 amp electrical system; bigger cockpit. And, absolutely, the need for a bigger tow vehicle. Frankly, I love my truck... and if not for the 25, I can't imagine I'd own this truck. After all, like many here, I believed the factory specs on weight... UNTIL I actually ordered the boat and heard from a bunch of other 25 owners about the real world weight... as in: over 8,500 pounds on the trailer (ours weighs in at 8,700 pounds, with very little fuel, 20 gallons of water, and not all our cruising gear (we carry a lot of that in the bed of the pick-up).

Launching/retrieving is a non-issue - it's the easiest boat to launch that we've owned. I've done it solo, but we generally do it with the two of us - Joan backs the trailer into the water, and I drive the boat up onto the trailer. I back the trailer with the boat on it into the water, and Joan guides it off the trailer with dock lines. She can move it around the dock by herself. No big deal.

Bottom line for us: we do more extended cruising on out boat because it has more room and amenities - it is more "home-like". Some people like to "keep it simple", and I think it's great that there is a C-Dory that fits that need. BUT, I LIKE having a bathroom... heck, we have a couple of 'em in our house; our RV has a real nice one; the one in the C-Dory 25 is small, but at least it's THERE. I have showered in the cockpit of our sailboats in the past, but (don't read on if you are offended by talk of bodily functions)... I like to crap in private. There, I said it. That alone is not worth the extra $$ for a 25 over a 22... BUT, all the stuff listed above makes the boat a good fit for us. In our usage, size does matter, and this size works for us.

Frankly, I think either of these boats are best used with a couple onboard. A couple kids added to the mix would be better on a 25, in my honest opinion; but, Bill and El have gone to Alaska with 5 people onboard their 22, if I recall correctly. Keep in mind that they are exceptional people when it comes to minimalism. Most people would be hard pressed to stay friends in that circumstance... think I'm kidding? Lock yourselves in your bathroom for a weekend and see if everyone comes out speaking to each other.

Neither has a great dinette for 4 people, although you can squeeze 4 around the table of the 25... uncomfortably. Neither has great sleeping accommodations for two couples... oh, sure, you can use the floor or the cockpit... how often do you sleep on the floor at home? And while we're speaking of that, do you have a bathroom at home? Sure, I know a boat isn't the same thing as your house... but, when you plan to spend more than a few hours on it, you need to consider what minimum amenities EVERYONE in the family needs to be comfortable.

Good luck with the decisions. I could be happy with either boat, but I am happier with the 25, because my darling wife is happy with the 25. I'm a guy... I would probably be OK living in a cardboard box if I were alone in this world. Thank goodness I am NOT alone!

Best wishes,
Jim B.

[starcrafttom]

Just to add to what every one else already said. For your use I would get the 25. I had a 22 when my son was 14 and 5'6" . I'm 6' and 210 and susan is 5'10"? and if I told you her weight I would have to live in the boat full time. We spent 5 years in that boat and loved it but as the kid got to 6' and 200lbs sleeping on the table/bed was a feat of agility that he did not always master. Woke up several time to a loud thump followed by mild swearing or snoring. Kids can sleep thru anything. If you have two go for the 25. As it is I would let the kids sleep in a tent on shore where its safe. My son would do this with friends as he and they got bigger. One was 6'6" and 240 at 15???? what they hell do they feed them?

on one weekend with a total of 5 of use on board I could not get the boat to plane at all.

I dont have a 25 but a 27 and I have driven a few 25 of others. The 25 and the 27 love to run a little faster and I feel that once you get used to this you get better fuel burn then going slower at say 16 to 18. My boat now get s 2.3 to 2.5 at anything above 14mph. so same fuel burn at 14 mph as 30 mph, after that it goes down, so You might as well go faster. The ride at a higher speed is much better in a following sea. If I slow to much then the boat gets pushed around to much.

The 22 would burn a constant 3.5 to 4 gph so 4 to 5 mpg. yes its a lot better then the 25/27 but its just does not have the room we both love so much.

I find the head very much worth the cost. If you are going to have two kids on board it will be a constant shuffle of stopping and moving the port-potty. No privacy at all for the boats or the wife unless everyone goes out on the back deck. I just love having a enclosed head no matter what type of toilet is installed.

As others have noted your current truck will not tow a 25.

[Captains Cat]

[grutledge]

Charlie -

I think you misrepresented my response. Perhaps you should post the whole things rather than your synopsis. I fully admitted that it is not a lake boat - it is just my perception, so I hope you didn't take it personally.

I'm sure your tom cat is a great boat - just not for me. Maybe if I spent some time on one, I might change my mind. But to be honest, I have never seen one around here and have not had the opportunity to try one. My only experience with cat boats are lake boats - thus the perception.

Glen

[starcrafttom]

I have driven Warrens tom cat a few times and its not just a lake boat. Your thinking of pontoons boats. The tomcat would be great on a lake or any body of water. I love driving the tomcat as its a speed demon. Great boat to fish from with a lot of deck space and large fish boxes.

having talk to several owners the draw back, depending on you use, is the fuel consumption. As I stated my 27 and the 25 get close to the same mpg as long as they are one plane. anywhere from 13 to 30 mph I get the same 2.3 to 2.5 mpg. The tom cats dont really start to get good mph until they are in the mid 20's or not on plane at all. even thought a tom cat rides level at 14 its not really up on plane. But do not despair because the tom cat can run in almost any sea to 3 or 4 ft ( depending on wave duration) at 22 to 30 mph. and if you really have to be there over night she will run 45 to 50mph( don't tell warrren )

[JamesTXSD]

Gracious, where to begin with this new discussion? For any newbies, let me preface this with: we own a 25, not a TomCat. When we were in the "discovery stage" about C-Dorys (2005), we went through quite a process... first of all, it was hard to even find any C-Dory to look at in our area (deep south Texas and western South Dakota). We saw one skanky, mold-encrusted, forlorn 22 (the owner had passed away and the boat sat on a lift)... and still decided that this brand deserved further consideration.

We were looking for a boat that had these qualities...
1. Trailerable
2. Capable of handling a variety of conditions
3. Comfortable cruising for a couple (and a cat)
4. Within the budget of a soon-to-be-retired couple
a. To purchase
b. To operate

Our neighbor (who now owns a Ranger Tug) had a Nimble Nomad at the time, and I was intrigued by that boat... it seemed to have all the qualities we were looking for in a small powercruiser. He said, "You don't want this boat, you want a C-Dory."

I had never heard of C-Dory at that point, but went to work researching... and discovered the C-Dogs, this young up-start group, and Bill & El. I had concerns that a 22 foot boat would be too small for our intended use, but this couple had been everywhere on theirs. You know the thought process: "If they can do it, we can do it."

Fast forward to the Seattle Boat Show in 2006, where we had the opportunity to see ALL the C-Dory models in person... and even more: visit with people who own and cruise these boats. The best intro class we could have gotten.

My thoughts: let's buy a 22... it's in our price range, other people spend extended time on 'em, seems to be a tough little boat. Joan's thoughts: more room and comfort in the 25... more storage... a storage cabinet that would be perfect for the cat's needs (yes, really)... a fridge... hot and cold pressure water... an enclosed head with a shower. My thoughts: that 25 is getting close to the towing capacity for the Class B campervan (8,400 pounds) that we enjoy so much... it's $30k more than the 22... what if we don't like this powercruising stuff?... it's $30k more than the 22... what if I have to buy a different tow vehicle... no, the manufacturer assures me that the 25 will be around 6,000 to 6,500 pounds all up on the trailer... it's $30k more than the 22.

The factory had one of the brand spanking new TomCat 255s on display as well. We have a multi-hull (a Corsair trimaran sailboat) - I LOVE multi-hulls!... it's $40k more than the 25! DEFINITELY beyond the towing capacity of the campervan that was an integral part of our cruising plans... the cabin looks to be SO close to the 25... OMG, it's $70k more than the 22!

And all this before we even had the opportunity to ride on one of these boats.

My now-buddy, Tom, (yes, the same Starcraft guy here) offered to take us for a ride... and then introduced himself. We went out with Tom and Susan on their boat and wound up impressed and concerned... impressed on how easy it was to launch and get underway... impressed that we could be out of the weather (it was 45º and drizzly) and comfortable... concerned that it felt and sounded SO different from my beloved sailing tri... concerned about where we would store the stuff we want to take cruising... concerned that there was no "built-in" seating in the cockpit... impressed with all that integrated Raymarine nav gear... concerned about the cost of admission.

A lot to absorb before making a buying decision.. overnight.

We felt the 25 met our needs and budget the best of those three choices. Then came even MORE decisions as we decided how to equip the boat.. don't get me started on single vs twins, nav gear, etc, etc, etc. As it all played out, the REAL weight of a finished boat on a trailer did necessitate the need for a different tow vehicle (a diesel pick-up). All of these decisions you have to make BEFORE you even get to use the boat... what if you're wrong!!

Now, with years and a lot of cruising behind us, comes the experience I wish I had before making the buying decisions. Thus, the real reason for this post: we understand the angst in making this buying decision... and some been-there-done-that observations:

Each of these boats are impressive, but they are VERY different from each other. BIG difference between the 22 and the 25, more than the 12% difference in length would have you believe. You'd have to ride on both to see what I mean; spend time on both... as in: laying on the v-berth, make a meal at the galley while the other person tries to move from the helm to the cockpit, figure out where all your stuff will go.

The difference between the 25 and the TomCat is even more huge, even though the boats are somewhat similar in length and cabin layout. The TomCat has endless storage compared to the 25. The TomCat is a rocketship compared to the 25, and a generally better ride in most conditions. The "ride" is a subjective thing, but I am very impressed with the TomCat... it simply wasn't in our budget or assumed towing capacity when we were making our buying decisions, plus it was a new design, unproven at the time.

Having cruised with our friends, Brent and Dixie, on their TomCat, the fuel burn (theirs with twins, ours with a 135 single) isn't greatly different. They drove slower than their most efficient speed, we drove faster than ours. Both boats are comfortable for a cruising couple, but we were constantly astounded when they pulled stuff out of storage.

So, to further compound decisions, and considering that there have been some amazing prices on a couple used TomCats listed here, I would sure keep that boat in the consideration. Any of these boats could be used in any water (lake, river, coastal), but the best feature of all of 'em is the fact that they are trailerable - you can TAKE them to any water. Our boat has experienced all three coasts, up into Canada (east and west), and many places in between. The best advice I could offer: try 'em all out and buy the boat that best fits YOUR needs (and they will be different from anyone else here), and GO USE THE BOAT! Your usage may adapt to the boat you choose... but, life is uncertain and short - do your research, get the boat, don't look back, and enjoy your boat time!

Best wishes,
Jim B.

[grutledge]

Jim - Thanks for sharing your buying/decision making experience. It is amazing how similar it is to what I am going through right now. Clearly I have a lot to learn about the tom cat (and C-Dorys in general). I am truly amazed at how how helpful people are on this site. It is really something.

I appreciate hearing experiences etc with the tomcat so if anyone else has experience with them and would like to add something, I'd love to hear it. Even better, if there is someone with a Tom Cat on Vancouver island, I'd love to take a look at one. I probably shouldn't rule it out based on past experiences with catamaran lake boats ...

Thanks

Glen

[tpbrady]

In my experience the only thing that humbles a TomCat owner is anything over 3 feet. Then are they are just as slow as the rest of us.

[thataway]

Agree with Tom Brady on this one--the 3 to 3.5 foot limit in steep chop--not waves. Because the Tom Cat does great on large swells, and even in steep chop as long as you don't go straight into it. The issue there is that the tunnel clearance is a bit less than I think it should be--and when you get to the 3/3.5', you get some slam under the wing deck.

The Tom Cats do far better in the average condition than any of the other monohulls, with a couple exceptions. Really deep V such as the Contender or Regulator will run OK in 3 to 4 foot chop---and I have kept right up with a Contender under those conditions running at 35 knots. (Open Ocean--Gulf of Mexico). As I have noted, we have a bay with about 14 miles of fetch, and during "Northers" we get 35 to 40 mph wind blowing right down the bay. The first time we encounter this we slowed down--mistake. We found that speeding up the boat rode much better.

The Tom Cat has more room in the head--more head room as well (vertical clearance for people). The bunk is a long queen, and the dinette a bit bigger than the C Dory 25. If I had a choice between the boats, I choose a Tom Cat (having owned all 3). Range--the Tom Cat holds 150 gallons, and my experience is having gone 200 miles and still having at least another 50 miles of fuel, with reserve-about 2.2 miles per gallon in the mid 20's.

Please don't dismiss the Tom Cat as a "Lake boat"--the lake cats are tunnel hulls. There are a number of both cruising and racing offshore cats which will take about anything the ocean can dish out. Glacier Bay ran cats in some very tough conditions--including setting the US to Bermuda record, running Hawaii to the Midway Islands, Nome to Siberia--these all in 26 footers! The 34 went Seattle to Maine--pretty hard to find any other type of boat which can do this type of run in these sizes!

[Captains Cat]

Glen, I apologize. I just reread your post and I did apparently misrepresent what you actually said. For clarity, here is your post...
----------------------------------------------
From: grutledge
To: Captains Cat
Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:40 pm
Subject: Re: 25 VS. TomCat TC255
Hi Charlie. I have not really considered the Tom Cat. I can't wrap my head around a cat on the ocean. It always makes me think of a lake boat. I realize that this is totally not true, but it is hard to break old thinking...

Thanks for the offer though. If it was closer I might consider it. I always like to personally inspect and do sea trials on any boat I buy.

Glen
-----------------------------------------------

I didn't want you to dismiss the TC255 out of hand. I sure wish you could see/drive one, it would make a big impression on you! Good luck in your hunt, I'm sure you'll find a great boat! Lots of folks have bought boats sight unseen, it's an uncomfortable feeling but with these boats and their history, it has been done a lot! Plane tickets are not too expensive, If you come see it, try it and buy it, I'll give you credit for the ticket!

Charlie