Boats vs. float planes.

localboy · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:21 pm Post subject: Boats vs. float planes.

This pic got me wondering. We were anchored in Fisherman's Bay, Lopez Island. Suddenly, a Kenmore Air sea/float plane lands not 50' from us, drops it's passengers off and I took this as it departed. Happened two more times while we were there. Impressive, but...

http://www.c-brats.com/modules.php?set_albumName=album1536&id=San_Juans_2011_011&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php

What are the rules re: float planes and their landings/take-offs vs. boats? I tried Googling it various ways and didn't find any specific information. There were no markers of a "runway" that I could discern and various people had laid crab pots right in the plane's path. Other boats were moored/anchored around us too. I'm just glad we didn't anchor a tad bit more west in the bay or we'd have been smack dab in the middle of this guy's "strip". Shocked

thataway · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:58 pm Post subject:

I consider the float planes to have the right of way--both on the water and at the dock. If there is service to a harbor--and that includes much of the remote anchorages in Desolation Sound--boats leave a clear path for the float plane. We have had guests frequently brought to our boat by float plane when we had the Cal 46 in BC and AK.

Da Nag · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:05 pm Post subject:

While curious as to the actual rules as well, in practice the answer wouldn't matter to me.

Anything coming at me swinging a multi-bladed hatchet at several thousand RPM's, has the right of way.

Nunya · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:31 pm Post subject:

If I remember correctly, once a plane is on the water it is considered another watercraft and has to abide by the rules.

DaveS · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:37 pm Post subject:

The Navigation Rules under the Steering and Sailing Rules, the Responsibilites Between Vessels Rule 18 (e) states...."A seaplane on the water shall, in general, keep well clear of all vessels and avoid impeding their navigation".

General Rule 3 (e) defines the word...... "seaplane includes any aircraft designed to maneuver on the water."

All of the above rules being said, I'll do my best to stay out of their way regardless of what the rules say.... Rolling Eyes

...totally agree with Bill (DaNag).

I carry a copy of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, United States Coast Guard Navigation Rules International-Inland COMDTINSTM16672.2D on "Sea Shift" at all times. (This is the "bible" of Navigational Rules).
I suspect that if you google COMDTINSTM16672.2D, you will find it on line. The actual book contains 221 pages of Navigational Rules.

thataway · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:09 pm Post subject:

I have the utmost of respect for these float plane pilots. They have only small rudders on the ends of the pontoons, and much of the maneuvering is due to prop blast on the control surfaces. I give them the benefit of a doubt. Plus most of these guys are on commercial runs, and we can make their times easier. On the other hand, if you need medical attention or some rescue--it just might be one of these guys who comes to help you out....

DaveS · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:25 pm Post subject:

The commercial float planes (many private float planes as well), adhere to a closely similar flight/landing pattern at the "popular/frequent" destinations...(think Friday Harbor, Fisherman's Bay, Deer Harbor, Lake Union, Lake Washington, etc.) So boaters that frequent those areas are "on the lookout" for pending float plane activity. However, there are plenty of folks that cruise in for the first time and are surprised by the incoming flights. I've often thought how frustrating it especially must be for those pilots coming in to Friday Harbor with all of the boating activity there.
The most controlled area I've seen is going into and out of Victoria, B.C.
The float planes and boats have well marked channels that keeps them seperated out of each others' way.
Mark, Lake Stevens can be a real surprise as there is minimal float plane activity and they don't necessarily land on a set course. There are currently 2 float planes domiciled there at this time, but even if you see them secured to their docks, an occasional visiting float plane will drop in. Haven't seen one hit a jet ski yet, but I've been waiting.... Mr. Green

. (Actually, the jet skiiers are for the most part quite considerate there....thanks in part to L.S.P.D.)
Several years ago a large amphibious plane landed on the lake and someone called 911 to report a plane crash in the lake. We responded in time to see the folks that had just landed raising the cockpit canopy of their very expensive plane so they could sit and enjoy the lake.

localboy · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:58 pm Post subject:

I figured the plane has the "right of way" just out of consideration/courtesy & logic. My inquiry is more for the specifics of any rules that apply. Perhaps the FAA?

For instance, how is a boater to know a specific body of water is a "landing strip" and then where said "stip"exactly is? I had no idea Fisherman's Bay was a destination for Kenmore Air (nor Deer Harbor, until now) and found nothing in the cruising guides etc to indicate such. He seemed to pick the same "strip" but is that merey because it was clear? Like I said, I saw no markers designating a strip and would have hated to plunk down our anchor in the middle of what IS the strip. Perhaps the FAA?

thataway · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:10 pm Post subject:

If it is floating on the water, it is subject to the Nav rules when on the water. (For example a hovercraft is considered a vessel even in its flight mode, as well as the displacement mode. An airplane is considered a boat only when on its floats, even if up on the step and just about to become airborne.

As I recollect Naniamo Harbor has sea plane lanes that boats need to stay out of.
Meyers chuck is one of my favorites, where the plane comes in and has to make a turn as it lands or takes off --somewhat depending on the tired.

Also many wharf's have a seaplane area--where boats cannot moor. Also some of the planes will list to one side, and allow one wing to have its float in the water, and the other wing high enough to clear the dock.

Robbi · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:24 pm Post subject:

Mark, search "FAA H-8083-23"

Should answer some questions.

centerisland · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:01 pm Post subject:

Only-New-Reels-Catch-Fish-So-Purchase-Some-Often

Overtaken
Not Under Command (NUC)
Restricted in Ability to Maneuver
Constrained by Draft
Fishing (by nets or trawls)
Sail
Power
Seaplane
Overtaking

That is the COLREGS order of precedence for a crossing situation (and if you're not crossing, then it doesn't really matter, does it?). Vessel higher in the list is the "stand-on", the lower is "give way". If a collision is imminent, then the stand-on vessel must maneuver to avoid a collision.

Sure, it seems "nice" to keep out of someone's way, but if that other person is a professional then it becomes a guessing game for them if you behave in an unexpected manner.

Captains Cat · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:18 pm Post subject:

Best MNEMONIC I've heard since the resistor color code! Mr. Green

Now all I need is a system to remember the Mnemonic itself!! Rolling Eyes

Charlie

DaveS · Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:16 am Post subject:

Levitation · Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:24 am Post subject:

OK guys, in all your boating years how many jetskis have come roaring past you and how many seaplanes have come roaring past you?
Those of you who keep your boat near one of the few known seaplane bases don't count......
You in the far corner raise your hand higher .. lessee, lebenteen zillion versus, ummmmm, 1....
That's what I thought, much ado about not much...

As an old pilot (emphasis on old) I do know what the FAA regs and my local laws say about landing a plane on the water...
Just like your boat, the airplane is allowed to use the public waterways anywhere that it is not prohibited by Federal or State or local regulation...

Shocking, isn't it... Those "rich" airplane folks are allowed to go around terrorizing us innocent, non rich, boaters... javascript:emoticon(' Wink

')

Actually, many local communities do have ordinances banning seaplanes from the water within their governmental jurisdiction... These "laws" are not marked on any chart, marine or aeronautical, so the hapless pilot is really taking a risk by landing willy nilly... Seaplane pilots take great care to know where they may and may not land... The plane is at far greater risk of a boat suddenly turning in front of them, than the other way around...

So, worry not the pilot is looking out for you even if you are not...

Sea Wolf · Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:33 am Post subject:

Here's a seaplane that we had visit us at Shasta Lake a few years back that scoops up water and delivers it to raging forrest fires. Takes about two miles of distance on the water from near approach to full clearance during re-filling. We stayed out of the way, regardless of any rules.

The world s largest fire fighting aircraft, a Martin Mars JRM-3. The flying boat has a wing span of 200 feet (longer that a Boeing 747) and its tail section stands 48 feet high.

Joe. Teeth