CD25 Cockpit Floor Leak

[Dora~Jean]

I'm finally getting down to the "annoying" category of fixing things. I've had this leak since the boat was new (2003). It is located at the very rear of the cockpit floor just under the scuppers in the transom. It is somewhere in the slightly depressed well back there that's about 4-5" wide for the full width of the transom. Leaks about 1-3 cups of water per 2-day trip, varies.

About 4 years ago I attacked it with some spreadable/brushable, white roofing sealer I bought at Home Depot (1 gal). It slowed it down to about 1/2, but I don't think it adhered well, so it didn't seal well, now it has curled up and split and the leak is back to full. I also don't know if it's a dynamic crack that expands/contracts with force on the transom.

My question, what would be the best solution? I'm thinking towards several tubes of 3M 4200 (spread meticulously with a putty knife), or Boatlife, or even epoxy (but might separate if needs to be flexible), maybe all with a netting embedded for a tougher seal? I would curve it up each side of the "trough".

Any thoughts?

[potter water]

Steve, this will sound kinda nutty, but I've had a log home for years. We chinked with some stuff called "Log Jam." It is really sticky and paintable. The value of the stuff is that it STICKS and that you can pull the stuff apart about twice the width of the gap and it springs right back. I've thought if I ever get the kind of leak you are talking about on my cruiser that I would put in the light colored Log Jam and paint it to color match the boat cockpit color. Look it up on the internet. It is completely water proof and you can make a very nice radius with it just using a wet finger. Yes, it is water based, but once it dries, nothing gets through and it stays life time flexible.

[journey on]

Well, hi there Steve. Haven't heard from you in a long time. Assume everything's going well and you're still boating?

You have the '04 model, which has the same hull but a different cockpit than the later ones, as you're well aware. I can't think of an opening under the scupper outlets except for the drain plug fitting. As a matter of fact, when we got Journey On the flange for the drain plug leaked, until I sealed it with 5200 and put in bigger screws. The rest of the overboard drains are above the waterline.

Could the water be leaking through the bulkhead seal at the aft cabin station? Is it fresh or salt, or do you dare to find out?

Boris

[thataway]

Dora-Jean gives a hull number last 4 digits of l203, which would make the boat an 03, the same year we had. In our boat the sides of the cockpit floor were glassed into the hull and the foreword edge was secured with some bedding compound to the aft cabin bulkhead as Boris describes. My recollection is that the aft lower part which Steve describes as leaking was not well sealed. We pulled the scuppers, routed out the transom, filled with epoxy, and reinstalled the scuppers. Because of our concern for the transom, we put a layer of glass (1708) and epoxy up the transom, and onto the floor which did seal this aft area, and made it solid to the transom. We got water into the bilge, but it appeared to be thru the hatches in the floor. Steve is concerned about transom flexing. It should not, but because of the way that the boat was built (the plywood core of the transom does not go all of the way out to the sides of the hull, as i many boats, and the splash well appeared to be engineered to take some to the thrust, instead of the hull sides. This concerned us--so we strengthened the splash well, with several layers of glass/epoxy under the splash well sides and corners. Normally a transom should not flex--especially down low--but the way these were built flexion is a possibility.

[journey on]

Bob, I'm not sure what you're saying. According to Journey On's hull picture (below), the hull is one piece, with various holes drilled in it for the scuppers, drain plug, head water intake, etc. The deck molding also seems to show that the deck seam is continuous at the top of the hull, with the cockpit just a tub molded integral to the deck. Your description of reinforcing the transom was clear, but leaking in the aft lower part seems to indicate there was some way for water to enter other than through the scuppers, etc. Where could water come in except through the drilled holes in the hull? A leak forward and then under around the cabin bulkhead?

Any pictures? since all C-25 hulls are similar, I think the information is useful.

Also, so we don't start the plywood discussion again, Journey On has an insert of structural foam to support the transom. I don't know when they made the change, but certainly before 2005.

Boris

[thataway]

Hi Boris,
It is possible that the 2003 and 2005 boats are differently made. Yes, the 2003 has a relatively small piece of plywood in the transom (not all of the way across as the 22's have). There is no cockpit liner; the cockpit floor is glassed to the side of the hull mold--and there is a grid between the floor and bottom of the hull.

Here is a photo taken of the scupper as it was removed--note the little gap between the cockpit floor and the transom:



And from the inside, where there is definitely a gap between the cockpit floor and the transom, which we glassed over:



Then the first layer of 2 layers of glass between the recessed area of the floor and transom. The second layer of glass covered more area across the transom. In both of these photos in the foreground, you can see some mat which was poorly put in place, and it is possible that this was supposed to go up the transom, but didn't.




And here after the scupper is redone, filled with epoxy, and the glass is on the inside:



This photo represents how the floor in the cockpit is made--it is one piece which appears to have been set in the hull (there is no inner cockpit liner--which the 2005 boat may have had?--and the floor is just tabbed into the hull with a layer or perhaps 2 of matt. This was before the old wood cockpit core was removed, and the new Nadicore core put in place.



This photo is after Nadicore is put in placed and fiberglass is over it tabbed into the old flange and to the hull sides:



It is very likely that Dora Jean has exactly the same problem--that there was just filler material, or just polyester resin put there without enough glass, or even no tabbing glass from the floor to connect to the transom.. There may have been expansion of the crack due to water and ice formation (the boat was in New Jersey), or working of the transom, since it was not fixed with glass between the transom and the floor.

My suggestion is to pull everything out of that area, get back in there with a grinder and find out exactly what is there, then grind out what is necessary to put in glass and epoxy to make sure that this area is water tight. The best tool may be a small drum sander on the flexible shaft of a Dremel tool. Unfortunately the factory did not do it right when these boats were built.

[journey on]

Bob,

Thanks for the info, I now see the problem. When we bought Journey On I got the impression that all that was changed was the aft cockpit bulkhead and the addition of the gas tank hatch. They completely rejiggered the cockpit, as the pictures show, and improved it.

I don't know if Steve is happy with the news, since that's a lot of work. But he can speak for himself.

Boris

[Jake]

Bob,

Great explanation and pictures. Really pinpoints the problem and solution. One question I have (which I realize is obvious to you guys) is where is the water coming from which Steve describes as a leak?

As always, thanks for your help.

Jake

[Dora~Jean]

Thanks all for your information. Like I said, this is more of an annoyance, not a critical item (yet...). I always had "sea water" in the bilge at the end of a trip, and that would require that I fill and flush that area with fresh water to preserve the bilge pump (which has now only be replaced once since the factory installed pump--so hey, all that trouble has saved me from buying a $50 pump! ha).

Since this boat is kept on a trailer, covered during non-use and lives here in the Southwest, that all speaks well for keeping everything dried out pretty well.

Bob, you nailed it. I am positive it is leaking just below the scupper(s) where there is most likely a gap between the cockpit floor and the transom. I got a glue when I stuck my head/body into the area below the floor where I store the stern anchor, there was a "waterfall-like" stain on the transom face below that scupper (port side). I think I will follow your suggestion and grind out that area under both scuppers to surround the problem and decide best course. You recommend filling AND glassing this area from above since I won't be removing the floor like you did?

[Dora~Jean]

Oh, and I didn't answer all the questions I see. Boris, yes, I'm doing fine and getting the boat out 6-10 times per year rather than 12-15 as I did before, but hoping that will change once I get my own house and place to store again. Thanks for asking!

The water is coming in from the scuppers. Yes, there is some leakage into the hatches when I wash the boat (which I re-bedded and sealed about 5 years old), the hatch covers don't make a perfect seal. No water into the forward part of the cockpit floor against the cabin since I also sealed that with 3M 5200 about 8 years ago--it has some small cracks from contraction now, so I'll consider V-ing out some of that joint and re-seal with something better that doesn't shrink.

[Jake]

Thanks Steve, now I have the picture straight in my head.

Jake

[thataway]

Since I knew that the boat had been abused, I had to look for issues--and we found this even before we floated the boat. For those who do not know the story, this boat was from New Jersey, and was put up for sale for about $60,000 and described as being in good condition. A C Brat from the West Coast hired a surveyor to evaluate the boat (wisely), and of course was upset when he found out that the cockpit floor around the hatch in the floor was broken and caved in. There was obvious rot in the cockpit floor. There were some cracks in the splash well around the transom, and high moisture content in the transom. I was interested in buying a 25, and had no fear of re-doing the boat, if the price was right. I watched the price slowly come down, to the high 40's--still no takers. On a Thursday at about 1 PM, the owner posted he would sell the boat as is, where is, for $30,000. I immediately called him, and made arrangements to transfer $10,000 to his bank account--a sales contract was part of that deal. I had to get a trailer made which took about 2 weeks, and then drove about 1200 miles to pick up the boat. Some of the damage was worse, and some was less, but it had to be fixed. I had also been in contact with the factory, and felt that they had an obligation since the floors and transom had not been properly sealed. As it turned out, the factory did reimburse me for the materials, but not labor. Fair enough. The boat had been used hard for several years--probably pounded into chop, rather than slowing down and going ova to one side. There was some delimitation of the forward "V"Berth, and also some gap in the side of the aft cabin bulkhead. I believe that the first owners wife wanted nothing further to do with the boat, and it sat out in the weather, with no shrink wrap for at least one winter, and the cockpit filled with snow--freeze thaw cycle made the damage worse.

When we got the boat to Pensacola, I hired a gal who had worked for me since the mid1990's to help with the cockpit floor (mostly because of my back problems), but I crawled in and started to inspect, as well as tear apart the area around the transom. We only cut out about 4 feet of the floor--the core of the rest was fine, but we did remove the fiberglass on the top, so we started with a fresh surface, and could seal any wood which was there, and avoid any future problems. The tabbing of the V Bunk area and the aft cabin bulkhead also was easy. As Boris noted the caulking in the Front of the cockpit floor was showing cracking, so it was removed and replaced.

The transom was an enigma, because we did not know the extent of damage to the plywood core. We went over it carefully with a moisture meter and even drilled some test holes--no water in the majority of the core--only where there had been the depth sounder transducer screws, the screws for the trim tabs, a little around the scupper, and some in the corners at the top. All of these areas were ground out,(mostly using a carbide router bit in an air dye grinder, and then filled with epoxy and micro balloons. New glass was placed over these and the gel coat patched.

I agree that salt water was coming in around the scuppers--with the depressed area aft, normally that water would have run back out--however with the crack--and I suspect that some of the other boats have the same defect, salt water would get into the bilge. While we were at it, all penetrations into the core (screws holding pumps, bulkheads and fittings) were removed, the core checked, then epoxy filled and new SS screws put in place. We also re-enforced the transom from the inside. At the end of all of this, the boat was better than new, and served us well for the trips we wanted to make on it. We visit the boat each time we go to Lake Powell, since it is kept in the water there most of the year.

[Dora~Jean]

I got a chance to view your boat, Bob, on the Delta Extravaganza a few years back. I'll contest that that CD25 you refurbished turned out absolutely beautiful. The transom area, cockpit floor, etc, all looked great and there was no way to detect any work had been done, all smooth and fared (faired?) out perfectly. Well done for sure!