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C-Nile
Joined: 09 May 2008
Posts: 638
City/Region: Connecticut
State or Province: CT
C-Dory Year: 2012
Vessel Name: Betty Ann
Photos: C-Nile
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 Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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As the buyer of the first production boat, my wife and I would like to chime in on this discussion. Firstly, we can see why it took 20 gallons of Mascoat Delta-T: that boat has a lot of surface area on the underside of the deck and on the hull. Furthermore, there were two coats in the cabin and berth. Having spent many overnights in a CD 16 Cruiser, I did not appreciate the condensation very much. My wife and I plan to spend two weeks on the boat during our shake-down cruise in late September. Reading about the kind of temperatures you have in the PNW, that insulating material will be beneficial.
We never heard of Mascoat Delta-T until Les brought it up, but after delving into the details about this excellent product, we would say that it should be offered as an option. However, it should be highly encouraged.
Lastly, we share the group's opinion on dealing with Les at EQ Marine. It has been such a pleasure for us to work with Les. It's refreshing really. Not being all that sophisticated, he educated and steered us toward the options we should have, and away from those that we do not need. He has put his heart and soul into this boat for us as I am sure he has done for many of you, and he has been honest and open throughout the entire process. When someone treats us well, we reciprocate, which is why we will pick up the tab for the cost of this material. It is worth it.
Betty and Rich
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Marinaut 215 - "Betty Ann" Sept-2011
CD 16 Cruiser "C-Nile" Sold 06/2011 |
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Les Lampman
Dealer
Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 779
City/Region: Whidbey Island
State or Province: WA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:56 am Post subject: |
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First of all...THANKS!  I didn't expect to see so many responses this morning when I checked in here and I'm more than pleased.
I have to ask the C-Brats given my history with the group and our association with the C-Dory boats. It only makes sense (at least to me).
I'll respond to individual posts below.
Les
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Les
www.marinautboats.com |
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Les Lampman
Dealer
Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 779
City/Region: Whidbey Island
State or Province: WA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:01 am Post subject: |
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| breausaw wrote: | | 20 gallons!! 5 gallons did my 22s V-birth and most of the cabin, wish I'd had about 2 gallons more perhaps but 20 gallons? I would think 20 gallons would do 3 Marinauts. |
I'm right there with you, it was astounding number to me as well. However, we did the entire hull...and we did it bare, meaning every surface in the boat (in the cabin, in the berth area, in the cockpit, under the side decks, under the transom area, the entire underside of the floor pan (the bow to stern deck or sole), and the hull below the floor pan) got one coat. Then we did a second coat in the cabin and v-berth area.
I still think 20 gallons is a lot but that's what they used. We had estimated 12 before we got started.
I'm not sure whether the coats are extra thick or what.
Les |
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Les Lampman
Dealer
Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 779
City/Region: Whidbey Island
State or Province: WA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| rogerbum wrote: | I agree with Bob on only doing the cabin and berth area. However from a marketing perspective to new buyers, I think you're better off offering it as an option rather than including it in the base price. Like it or not, most new buyers are not that sophisticated and are unlikely to appreciate the value of the Delta-T until they spend a few nights (or many nights) sleeping in the boat and getting dripped on. What new buyers will immediately notice is the difference in price between your boat and any other competitor out there. Also, none of those competitors will likely even offer it as an option.
So, from a marketing point of view, I think you're better off getting the customer's foot in the door with the lower price and then being frank and open with them about the cost/value of the optional Delta-T coating. The smart ones will pay the extra up front the rest, won't. However, you might not get as many in the door if you have too much standard stuff in the base price.
The beauty of asking the C-Brats for an opinion is that most of the frequent contributors to the site have been around C-Dories for awhile and will generally have very good advice. However, I think there's also a little danger in only getting advice from the experienced especially when it comes to marketing since we're not necessarily the type of people you will be selling most of the boats to. It's sort of like Microsoft getting advice on features from power users. They stick a lot of stuff in Word that the average user never touches based on input from expert users. I think you can fall into the same trap here and build the perfect boat for the expert that's too expensive for the non-expert to want. |
Thanks Roger,
This is a never-ending struggle for me. The perfectionist and do-for-others aspects of me what to offer the best boat we can but the business side of me also knows the price has to stay reasonable. And it's difficult to draw the line; what to I include as standard and what as options.
Right now 3 wipers are standard; should that be only 2, or 1?
We're using vinylester resin; should polyester (which is much cheaper) be standard and vinylester optional?
The forward center opening window is standard as is the (sliding) opening window in the aft cabin door; should those be optional?
Heavy duty 8" cleats are standard; should the lighter 8" cleats be optional (they're less than half the cost)?
The swim platform/ladder is standard equipment; should that be optional?
The BRM-2 bow roller is standard; should a much less expensive universal bow roller be standard?
If we backed out all the higher end standard equipment I could probably lower the base price by a few thousand dollars. The question for me is: will that really reduce the cost of the boat to the average buyer? Right now I think that many folks like the fact that one price covers just about everything available for the basic hull (that is, prior to rigging it with engine, electronics, and such). They can always delete things they don't want.
I honestly don't know which way is better (or if there really is a "better"). Would you rather pay (say) $45,000 for a M215 that has everything included or (say) $42,000 and add all the options one at a time?
One thing about Delta-T is that it's not all that easy/convenient to add to a boat at a later date after the boat has been used and the owners' find themselves with condensation issues. That's one of the motivations for making it a stock item. And...in even climates where humidity isn't all that much of an issue Delta-T is still a thermal insulation coating, which should help in places like Lake Powell and other warm/hot areas.
I absolutely want to ask C-Brats just because they're C-Brats. But also, I don't have a way to ask the question of potential buyers in general since I don't have a way to address them. The beauty of asking here is getting answers from folks that have experience with similar boats and who, thinking back, might have opted for Delta-T on their boats when they bought them (or not). In that respect I'm not asking the question of potential Marinaut buyers in particular but C-Brats in general for their insights.
Les |
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Les Lampman
Dealer
Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 779
City/Region: Whidbey Island
State or Province: WA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:25 am Post subject: |
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That's the stuff! |
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Les Lampman
Dealer
Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 779
City/Region: Whidbey Island
State or Province: WA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| Sea Angel wrote: | Les;
I am not familiar with the hull details of the unit with the 'floor pan'. 
Is there any possibility that this coating under the 'pan' could accelerate any hidden mold verses without the coating?
Is the smoothness of the surfaces - between no coating and the the added coatings and their insulating property relevant? . I hope this isn't a dumb question, but probably a mute point at best.
Mold is a constant battle here. Keeping the boat in dry storage has helped a lot.
I tried to delete this because it was off the mark from the main question, but it did not work like I thought .
OK, Carry on..... and on.... and on.... and let me slink away.
Art |
Hi Art,
Don't slink away...you've raised good questions.
There's a full length floor (deck/sole) in the Marinaut that drops into the hull and then is fully bonded in. That's the thing I'm referring to as the floor pan. Once it's bonded in there is a water-tight, air-tight space between the floor pan and the hull.
I don't know the answer to your question about the mold in the space under the deck. I don't think the Delta-T would be any more prone to it than bare fiberglass but I don't know for sure. The idea of the Delta-T in that area was to reduce condensation in the under deck space. Maybe that would mean less mold?
All the fiberglass parts in the boat have one finished side and one raw side. The finished side of the hull, cabin/deck, and cabin top faces out so it looks nice from the outside. The inside surfaces are raw fiberglass so we have to put some sort of coating on them. In the C-Dory (and many other boats) they spray a spatter gel coat finish inside. With the Delta-T coating that's sprayed on instead of the spatter gel coat then the Delta-T is covered with acrylic latex semi-gloss paint.
I would think one of the nice things about the way the Marinaut floor system is done is that one could add some bleach (or other "mold killer") to some water and pour that into the under deck space through the access hatch in the v-berth floor. On a trailer trip or out in the water than would probably slosh around enough to kill the mold. Then you could remove the water/mold killer solution afterwards.
Les |
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Les Lampman
Dealer
Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 779
City/Region: Whidbey Island
State or Province: WA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:48 am Post subject: |
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OK, I think I answered specific points/questions.
And thanks again for the comments and the "votes" on whether to make the Delta-T standard or an option.
One other thought: in the Pacific Northwest (and other locations) the motivation for the Delta-T revolves around condensation issues, but no matter where you are it's still a thermal insulation coating. So it helps whether it's dry and cold or dry and hot just as much as it does in more humid areas. Insulation is insulation.
Les |
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cruiserlessvinny
Joined: 25 Jul 2011
Posts: 80
City/Region: Suwanee
State or Province: GA
Photos: cruiserlessvinny (Name TBD)
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:13 pm Post subject: coating |
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If the Mascoat or not to Mascoat debate can be compared to the housing industry you might want to consider making it an option. Many of the better home builders are no longer around because they built spec. homes with many of the upgrades they (the builder) would want to have in a home. Folks loved the houses but weren't willing/able to pay for the upgrades.
Zap
_________________
I have a classic Whaler. Now I think I want a cruiser. I'm so-o-o-o-o confused. |
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olsurfdog
Joined: 13 Nov 2009
Posts: 179
City/Region: Carmel Valley
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 1989
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Summer
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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Just a thought. Would it be possible to fill the space between he hull and pan with foam?? this would certainly help with the sound and I would think cost less than the coating. Save the coating for living areas in the boat where condensation is a problem. Can foam be poured between them as they are assembled? Is it possible to control the amount accurately enough to keep it from distorting the pieces? Isn't this what's done under the berths on the C-dorys?
Michael |
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starcrafttom
Joined: 07 Nov 2003
Posts: 7882
City/Region: marysville
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1984
C-Dory Model: 27 Cruiser
Vessel Name: to be decided later
Photos: Susan E
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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For what its worth I would want the coating to be standard in the cabin and vberth. I doubt that spraying the inside of the pan will cut down any noticeable noise. And I don't think that the extra few dollars, even a few thousand out of the total price, would make a difference to a buyer. There is more cost savings in what type of electronic a buyer picks, or what type of downriggers.
I just cant imagine explaining to a buyer that if you want to stay dry in your boat you have to spend extra money??? But if you want to save a few buck's you can have water dripping on you?? I just cant see having it as a option. You either provided it as a standard item or you don't offer it at all.
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Thomas J Elliott
http://tomsfishinggear.blogspot.com/ |
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C-Nile
Joined: 09 May 2008
Posts: 638
City/Region: Connecticut
State or Province: CT
C-Dory Year: 2012
Vessel Name: Betty Ann
Photos: C-Nile
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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After we use our new Marinaut with the full Mascoat Delta-T coatings in September, we will try as objectively as possible to convey to the group our thoughts on the effectiveness of the product in terms of insulation as well as sound attenuation. We know what Dave's boat sounded like as a comparison, so it would be really interesting to experience the difference that these coatings would have, particularly on hull noise at varied speeds.
Rich and Betty |
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Bill Uffelman
Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 334
City/Region: Las Vegas
State or Province: NV
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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If there are two finish levels of M215 built that do not look noticeably different there will be potential for complaints in subsequent resales. A 2nd buyer who doesn't get as good a boat will potentially come up with negative comments that could hurt the brand.
Initial Ranger tugs with low horsepower created a bad vibe for the line from what I saw after release for example.
To me M215 is semi-custom with a high level of standard items -- period!
BTW sure would look good going out of the Indian River Inlet here in Sussex County DE.
Bill Uffelman
Packed to run inland from Irene
In Ocean View DE |
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breausaw
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1222
City/Region: Anchorage
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Triple J
Photos: Triple J
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:28 am Post subject: |
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| Les Lampman wrote: | | breausaw wrote: | | 20 gallons!! 5 gallons did my 22s V-birth and most of the cabin, wish I'd had about 2 gallons more perhaps but 20 gallons? I would think 20 gallons would do 3 Marinauts. |
I'm right there with you, it was astounding number to me as well. However, we did the entire hull...and we did it bare, meaning every surface in the boat (in the cabin, in the berth area, in the cockpit, under the side decks, under the transom area, the entire underside of the floor pan (the bow to stern deck or sole), and the hull below the floor pan) got one coat. Then we did a second coat in the cabin and v-berth area.
I still think 20 gallons is a lot but that's what they used. We had estimated 12 before we got started.
I'm not sure whether the coats are extra thick or what.
Les |
First off, Delta T in primarily and insulator so why would you applied it anywhere except to surfaces directly exposed to outside air. Under the transom area, floor pan, cockpit, side decks is a waste of product. It is the ambient air temperature that chills the inside surface and caused the condensation. I applied three heavy coats inside the cabin and v-birth and probable a foot or so below the water line in the cabin, still the sound proofing effect was remarkable and I only used 5 gallons.
Also you have to consider weight, there is not much moisture in this product and 20 gallons would equate to perhaps 40 or more pounds of additional hull weight.
_________________
Jay
2007 22ft C-Dory Triple J 2007-2012
2007 25ft C-Dory Triple J 2012-2018
Boatless for now but looking |
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oldgrowth
Joined: 27 Jun 2005
Posts: 2196
City/Region: Rochester
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2002
C-Dory Model: 16 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Voyager
Photos: C-Voyager
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| olsurfdog wrote: | Just a thought. Would it be possible to fill the space between he hull and pan with foam?? this would certainly help with the sound and I would think cost less than the coating. Save the coating for living areas in the boat where condensation is a problem. Can foam be poured between them as they are assembled? Is it possible to control the amount accurately enough to keep it from distorting the pieces? Isn't this what's done under the berths on the C-dorys?
Michael |
Michael – your thought about filling the space between the floor pan and the hull can be done but I do not think it would be a good idea.
There are many threads and post on this site about the C-Dory and Cape Cruiser/Venture Series boats that did just that. While it may help with condensation and noise, when water gets in there, it can be a nightmare for the owners. They often end up cutting holes in the floor pan and or transom to blow air in between the floor and hull, sometimes for weeks to dry it out. Our floor pan is built and sealed better than either of the other boats to eliminate potential leaks and water intrusion. However; as you know with any boat there is no such thing as a 100% guarantee so I wanted it to be easy for the boater to know if there is water between the two and for it to be very simple and easy to remove the water. That's why it is an open space without any foam.
Dave 
www.marinautboats.com |
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Les Lampman
Dealer
Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 779
City/Region: Whidbey Island
State or Province: WA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| olsurfdog wrote: | Just a thought. Would it be possible to fill the space between he hull and pan with foam?? this would certainly help with the sound and I would think cost less than the coating. Save the coating for living areas in the boat where condensation is a problem. Can foam be poured between them as they are assembled? Is it possible to control the amount accurately enough to keep it from distorting the pieces? Isn't this what's done under the berths on the C-dorys?
Michael |
Hi Michael,
The foam/no foam debate has been raging for awhile now (thankfully in the background). We've been told be everyone we asked in the boat building community that there is no foam that will not retain water (at least not foam used in boat building). We've been told the foam itself won't absorb water but all foam can trap and hold it. When it does that adds weight, smell, and mold.
Adding foam to the space under the sole in the M215 would be more expensive than the Delta-T.
We've taken the position that we'd rather any water that ends up under the sole (most likely from condensation and someone drilling through the sole) be able to drain forward to the access port where it can be removed. If you have a leak and you have foam it may be a very long time before you know it. Without the foam it's very easy to tell if there's water under the sole.
If someone really and truly wanted foam under the sole in the M215 we'd be able to add it but it's not something we want to make standard (or even encourage really).
On Edit: I should have read the whole thread first! If I had I'd have seen where Dave already answered this. 
Les
Last edited by Les Lampman on Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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