I need some input please...

[Les Lampman]

I got the finally tally on the Marinaut we have in build right now from the fiberglass folks. Kinda of shocking actually.

The application of Delta-T amounted to 20 gallons and $2,300 (my cost). That makes it a really tough thing to add as a standard item. The margin on the M215 is so tight right now that I can't absorb an additional charge like that; or even close.

So the input I'd like from folks is basically how to handle the situation. It doesn't make any difference if you have/want a C-Dory 22, Venture 23, Marinaut 215, or whatever.

It seems my choices are:

1) Add the cost (at my cost) to the base price of the boat and make the Delta-T standard.

2) Make the Delta-T an option (at $2,300).

3) Cut down on the amount of Delta-T used by only using it in the cabin and v-berth. In the Marinaut 215 that would mean not using it on the underside of the floor pan or on the inside of the hull below the floor pan. Because the floor pan is full length there is a lot of area (square footage) to coat when doing the underside of it and the hull area under it.

I think (because I'm just estimating) that just doing the cabin and v-berth would probably bring the cost of the Delta-T addition down to perhaps $800 to $1000 (it could be less but I need a quote to make sure).

Then the question would be whether to raise the base price of the boat and make the Delta-T standard in the cabin and v-berth, or make it an option? I'm inclined to make it a standard item because that's the level of quality/value I'm after but you all write the checks so I'd like to know how others feel about it.

For more information: the reason we did one coat on the inside of the complete boat (and under the floor pan) was to not only reduce condensation but also to make the boat as quiet as we could (there are two coats in the v-berth and cabin). While Delta-T is primarily a thermal coating is does also help reduce the sound level. I'm not sure now that it's worth the cost to do the complete boat.

So there you have it, I'd love to have your thoughts, ideas, and recommendations.

[thataway]

My vote would be standard item--just coating V berth and cabin--not the other areas. The major condensation issues for us have been in the V berth and Cabin--I wonder if you can really measure the sound decrease--where as the amount of condensation would be very recognizable.

[Les Lampman]

[breausaw]

20 gallons!! 5 gallons did my 22s V-birth and most of the cabin, wish I'd had about 2 gallons more perhaps but 20 gallons? I would think 20 gallons would do 3 Marinauts.

[Aurelia]

Standard for the berth and cabin and possibly optional for the rest of the hull. Until you have this boat and a boat with only cabin/berth coating to test, it will be hard to say whether the additional material option is worth it.

I applied four coats of a similar product in our boat's berth and it nade a very noticable difference in noise at speed.

[rogerbum]

I agree with Bob on only doing the cabin and berth area. However from a marketing perspective to new buyers, I think you're better off offering it as an option rather than including it in the base price. Like it or not, most new buyers are not that sophisticated and are unlikely to appreciate the value of the Delta-T until they spend a few nights (or many nights) sleeping in the boat and getting dripped on. What new buyers will immediately notice is the difference in price between your boat and any other competitor out there. Also, none of those competitors will likely even offer it as an option.

So, from a marketing point of view, I think you're better off getting the customer's foot in the door with the lower price and then being frank and open with them about the cost/value of the optional Delta-T coating. The smart ones will pay the extra up front the rest, won't. However, you might not get as many in the door if you have too much standard stuff in the base price.

The beauty of asking the C-Brats for an opinion is that most of the frequent contributors to the site have been around C-Dories for awhile and will generally have very good advice. However, I think there's also a little danger in only getting advice from the experienced especially when it comes to marketing since we're not necessarily the type of people you will be selling most of the boats to. It's sort of like Microsoft getting advice on features from power users. They stick a lot of stuff in Word that the average user never touches based on input from expert users. I think you can fall into the same trap here and build the perfect boat for the expert that's too expensive for the non-expert to want.

[thataway]

Roger brings up a good question--what is the target market? I would have guessed that is is C Dory owners--those who have 19's, those with older 22's and those with 16's. At this point I don't see this as a high volume boat. But it is one I would be interested in if I was buying a boat this size. However I only know about it because of the C Brat forum.

[Don and Brenda]

I agree cabin and berth standard, I used the same product as Greg and it has deadened the noise level a bit also. I would much rather pay $800 up front than all the time taping etc later on.

[hambone]

Hi Guys, let me try and catch up. I assume you are using?
http://www.mascoat.com/mascoat-marine-insulating-paint.html

H

[Sea Angel]

Les;
I am not familiar with the hull details of the unit with the 'floor pan'.

Is there any possibility that this coating under the 'pan' could accelerate any hidden mold verses without the coating?

Is the smoothness of the surfaces - between no coating and the the added coatings and their insulating property relevant? . I hope this isn't a dumb question, but probably a mute point at best.

Mold is a constant battle here. Keeping the boat in dry storage has helped a lot.

I tried to delete this because it was off the mark from the main question, but it did not work like I thought .


OK, Carry on..... and on.... and on.... and let me slink away.

Art

[Casey]

To sell vessels (in this or any market) I think you'll have to have a very attractive entry-price to be competitive.

The arguments for the Delta-T are valid, particularly in v-berth, but I suspect it would be good if it was an option versus a standard feature. Not everyone has to contend with condensation on a normal basis (...Casey says from Arizona), and there may be other ways to address the condensation issue (e.g. better ventilation, keeping the cabin door open, not cooking spaghetti, etc. etc)

By way of comparison - several kayak manufacturer's make the same model of boat in rotomolded plastic, fiberglass, or kevlar. Each has its own benefit(s) but the choice is left to the buyer ... how much do they want to spend and do they really Want that sleek kevlar model, or will a simpler rotomolded model suffice?

I think it's a buyer choice, and since your vessels will be factory marketed for the most part, you (...Les) will have a ample able to describe the benefit/trade-off issues to individual buyers. TANGENT STORY: In 2003 we bought "Naknek" (CD22), now "C-Pearl," and back home on Whidbey Island! from Les while I was doing Army stuff at various places around the country. We'd never met Les, the whole deal was completed by phone and email (...countless emails); I was just going off a gut instinct that this was the guy I wanted to business-with. The process was so intensive (and successful) I almost felt like one of Dusty's kid's by the time Sandy and I took delivery. It was nearly Perfect. (We arrived three days before Naknek's projected delivery date, and Les politely declined to let me see my boat "...because it wasn't Perfect yet.") As a result, Sandy and I spent three days cooling our jet's in the PNW until our "delivery date." Three days later is was Perfect, Les let me finally take my boat, and we never looked back (except in admiration for this detail-oriented Guy!) Thanks Les.

Casey
Lake Montezuma, AZ

[Wandering Sagebrush]

Les, I would look into Jay's comment that his application on the 22 only took 5 gallons. It would be interesting to get to the root of the difference. Thinner coat, less surface covered???

That said, I line up with the other comments about just doing the vee berth and cabin, with any more being an option.

Steve

[c-ness]

If I was looking to buy this boat I'd look for coating in the v-berth and
Cabin. I agree that many potential buyers will not be too sophisticated about this product.

[tpbrady]

Les,

I was one of the first that put it into both the V-berth and cabin. I used about 3.5 gallons but didn't put it on as thick as Jay probably did. The reduction in condensation with my application was 90% or greater from before. The difference was so distinct that the before was with two of us in the cabin running the Wallas and the after was three of us in the cabin with no heat in the rain and no condensation to speak of. When I put it on the thickness was about what the manufacturer said would happen after 2 coats. I didn't have a way to measure it but it compared pretty well with an envelope stuffed with a one page letter.

My vote is the V-berth and cabin with the V-berth a little thicker and it should be standard. I would not want another fiberglass boat with a cabin without it. Carpet is maintenance and stink waiting to happen. Mascoat is permanent. My test strip on the garage floor is still there and hasn't worn off even with light foot traffic.

[BRAZO]

We don't have a big problem with condensation, so my vote would be to apply as option only. That way you can sell the advantage based on geographical need.

When we purchased our CD22, we had just sold our 32 Sundowner and wanted a non-complex boat. Bare walls inside are great - leaks don't ruin teak walls as they did in the tug.

btw: I love the fact that you are out on c-brats looking for thoughts / ideas - great resource of people that love these boats (not just c-dory). I'm a bit surprised that the new c-dory factory doesn't do the same - I'd be a great "salesperson" for them in the non dealer area of the Midwest if i thought they cared about having current owners aboard.