The C-Brats Forum Index
HomeForumsMy TopicsCalendarEvent SignupsMemberlistOur C-DorysThe Brat MapPhotos

Outboard "rattles" at high RPM and it didn't used
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The C-Brats Forum Index -> Outboards and Systems
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
timflan



Joined: 16 May 2006
Posts: 541
City/Region: Seattle
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Two Lucky Fish +1
Photos: Two Lucky Fish
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 5:25 pm    Post subject: Outboard "rattles" at high RPM and it didn't used Reply with quote

What the what?!

My Suzuki-manufactured 2004/5 Johnson 90 (EFI, 4-stroke) outboard started "rattling" or "clicking" at high RPMs. First time I noticed it was in October 2010, and today when I ran back and forth in the speed testing lane on Seattle's Lake Union, I got exactly the same thing.

Engine started fine, ran fine, despite sitting for a few months. But at WOT and a bit below...clickety-clickety-clickety.

So what gives? Something with valves or cams, right?

Thanks!

_________________
Timothy R. R. Flanagan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
journey on



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 3593
City/Region: Valley Centre
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: journey on
Photos: Journey On
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The experts will be here soon, but for starters, how about detonation? How old is the gas and was it "good" when you got it?

Carbon deposits do build up over time, which can cause detonation. Just the first thing that came to mind. Or check the oil to see if you have any.

Boris
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Dora~Jean



Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 1501
City/Region: Simi Valley
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Dora~Jean
Photos: Dora~Jean
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I own Yamahas, but the first thing I'd do is remove the outboard cover, then remove the flywheel cover and look for something obvious, maybe loose. If nothing obvious up top, check for chips or bends on the prop. Other than that, possibly something more serious internally.
_________________
Steve
"Great works are performed not by strength, but perseverance" (Samuel Johnson)
Dora~Jean C-Dory 25 2002-Present
Corsair F-31 Trimaran 1996-2002
MacGregor 26X 1988-1996
Glaspar Seafair Sedan 18 (2)
StarCraft 19 & 22
Catalina 17 & 22
Crestliner 19
+4 Previous, 1/2 sail, 1/2 power
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Captains Cat



Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 7313
City/Region: Cod Creek>Potomac River>Chesapeake Bay
State or Province: VA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Captain's Choice II
Photos: Captain's Cat
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We need Larry H......
Wink

Charlie

_________________
CHARLIE and PENNY CBRAT #100
Captain's Cat II 2005 22 Cruiser
Thataway (2006 TC255 - Sold Aug 2013)
Captain's Cat (2006 TC255 - Sold January 2012)
Captain's Kitten (1995 CD 16 Angler- Sold June 2010)
Captain's Choice (1994 CD 22 Cruiser- Sold Jun 2007)
Potomac River/Chesapeake Bay
K4KBA
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
timflan



Joined: 16 May 2006
Posts: 541
City/Region: Seattle
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Two Lucky Fish +1
Photos: Two Lucky Fish
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's got oil. And although it's been a year since I serviced the engine, I've only put about 50 hours on it. I was going to skip this year's service since the engine has been used so lightly the past year.

The gasoline...is easily over six months old at this point. Possibly eight months, but not more than that.

I did "bump" bottom with the outboard literally the day before I noticed the new rattling in October. I was barely moving, exploring the Sammamish River as far upstream as I could get. Me and the kayakers, pretty much. Sounder was flashing, meaning I was in shallower water than it could measure, and I was idling in forward, watching the bottom through the side window. When she touched, I killed the engine, raised the motor, and let the current push me back downstream into deeper water. There is no apparent damage from this event, but the fact that I first noticed the rattling on my way home from that adventure...In the immortal words of Led Zeppelin, "It makes me wonder..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Captains Cat



Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 7313
City/Region: Cod Creek>Potomac River>Chesapeake Bay
State or Province: VA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Captain's Choice II
Photos: Captain's Cat
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sent Larry H. a PM. He'll chime in if he's around. Sounds to me like when you hit bottom, you may have bent something inside the engine. That's not good. Cry

Charlie
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Larry H



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 2041
City/Region: Tulalip,
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1991
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Photos: Nancy H
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That year Johnson is a Suzuki in white paint. I would call the Suzuki dealer for any advice they might have. If the prop hit something in the river, you might have damaged a gear, but at idle I think that is unlikely. Did the motor stop running when you hit bottom? Is there any damage on the prop?

If the lower end is OK, that leaves the powerhead. Valves can make a sound as well as rod or main bearings. Detonation or 'pinging' makes a rattling sound.

I would eliminate the fuel as a suspect by running on known-good new fuel. Detonation from low octane is possible. Most of us have heard 'pinging' in cars or trucks due to low octane or too much spark advance. The new cars adjust themselves to eliminate pinging.

The first and easiest thing to do is test on new fuel. Perhaps you could get new fuel in your kicker tank and run on that to test.

_________________
Larry H

A C-Brat since Nov 1, 2003
Ranger Tug 27 ex 'Jacari Maru' 2017 - 2022
Puget Trawler 37 ex 'Jacari Maru' 2006-2017
1991 22' Cruiser, 'Nancy H'--1991-2006
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
timflan



Joined: 16 May 2006
Posts: 541
City/Region: Seattle
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Two Lucky Fish +1
Photos: Two Lucky Fish
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The engine did not stall. I don't think the prop made any contact at all.

Yes it sounds a lot like "pinging" I remember from cars in the olden days.

I'll try the fuel first.

Thanks!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
hardee



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 12632
City/Region: Sequim
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sleepy-C
Photos: SleepyC
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim,

Did the fuel have Marine Stabil in it for that "six months plus" fuel storage? I hope so. If not I would start adding it, and Startron fuel treatment, and fid a way (kicker tank) to run that fuel through with about half new gas. If it is the pinging, and it is that predetonation thing maybe the new gas will help.

By the way, When, (day & times) are you (your group) playing at Friday Harbor?

Thanks and good luck.

Harvey
SleepyC Moon

_________________
Though in our sleep we are not conscious of our activity or surroundings, we should not, in our wakefulness, be unconscious of our sleep.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
timflan



Joined: 16 May 2006
Posts: 541
City/Region: Seattle
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Two Lucky Fish +1
Photos: Two Lucky Fish
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't add any fuel-preservation additives, because NORMALLY I run the boat enough to use up the fuel. This past year has been a real challenge for me, professionally and emotionally. Plus the weather has sucked, mostly. As a result, the boat hasn't gotten much use over the winter. Right now both tanks are about half full. What I think I'll do is siphon the fuel from one tank into the other tank and fill the now-empty tank with new fuel, and then run it.

If it turns out the fuel is to blame, then I'll run off the "good" tank and fill it about 1/4 with "bad" fuel with each fill-up until it's gone. Sound about right?

Alas...no Friday Harbor for us this year, and we are ALL BUMMED OUT about it. It's my family's favorite C-Brats event, and we're sorry to miss it. Arwen has first communion that weekend, however, and apparently this is some sort of Big Deal to Catholics. Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
hardee



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 12632
City/Region: Sequim
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sleepy-C
Photos: SleepyC
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"Alas...no Friday Harbor for us this year, and we are ALL BUMMED OUT about it. It's my family's favorite C-Brats event, and we're sorry to miss it. Arwen has first communion that weekend, however, and apparently this is some sort of Big Deal to Catholics."


Oh Yes, I remember now from the FH thread, but you are going to be there on July 4, Is that right? Looking forward to it.

Sounds like a good plan, with the gas, That should be a good mix. Sorry it has been a tough year. I think I can understand, been that way here too. I would recommend the Blue Stabil at least, in every tankful. I think it is good insurance.

Harvey
SleepyC Moon
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
matt_unique



Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 1881
City/Region: Boston
State or Province: MA
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 255 Tomcat
Vessel Name: Napoleon
Photos: Napoleon
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 8:18 am    Post subject: Rattle Reply with quote

I too would suggest starting with the gas. Start with the easy stuff...

Bump is relative - from what you described it would not sound like a damaging bump if you just touched your skeg. You mentioned the sound of old cars...like when you step on the gas and hear rattling? The engine pros should be able to help - rocker arms or valves out of adjustment?

_________________
Captain Matt
Former owner of Napoleon (Tomcat) Hull #65 w/Counter Rotating Suzuki 150's.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Matt Gurnsey
Dealer


Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Posts: 1532
City/Region: Port Orchard
State or Province: WA
Photos: Kitsap Marina
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We recomend Sta Bil be used all the time, just in case. It helps with ethonal problems and helps retain Octane level in the fuel. Today's gas goes bad very quickly.

I'm guessing fuel is the root cause of the problem.

_________________
Matt Gurnsey
Kitsap Marina
www.kitsapmarina.com
360-895-2193
(888) 293-7991
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
ghone



Joined: 13 Aug 2008
Posts: 1428
City/Region: Nanaimo
State or Province: BC
C-Dory Year: 2011
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Kerri On
Photos: Kerri On
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I concur with Matt, I've run stabil year round and had no issues, modern gas goes stale over lunch. Get out there and burn it off, right about 4 gallons an hour seems right, 4100 rpm 15 knots 1 c dory grin. George
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
timflan



Joined: 16 May 2006
Posts: 541
City/Region: Seattle
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Two Lucky Fish +1
Photos: Two Lucky Fish
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I haven't had a chance to give this much attention, but today I ran the engine, I switched between the two fuel tanks and ran it at a variety of throttle settings. I heard the rattling when I ran it above about 3000 rpm, but not at lower RPMs.

But now I think I have new, helpful data. Video data:
Tim's YouTube video

Now I could'a SWORN I checked the rotation of the prop in neutral, with the engine off, right after I got unstuck when I was up the river last fall. It's the first thing I do after running into debris or touching bottom. Check the prop, examine all the blades, make sure it turns freely and on-axis.

It's virtually impossible to imagine that I did NOT do this back in October. So what happened? Perhaps I was simply not looking for a clicking sound. My focus would have been on the prop, the rotation, and the ease of movement. Maybe I just didn't notice the clicking.

Or maybe it's something that's gotten worse since then?

I just don't know. Experts, please watch my little video and tell me what you think. Thanks!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The C-Brats Forum Index -> Outboards and Systems All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
     Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum



Page generation time: 0.1185s (PHP: 81% - SQL: 19%) - SQL queries: 32 - GZIP disabled - Debug on