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Sawdust



Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 1400
City/Region: Oak Harbor
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1984
C-Dory Model: 22 Classic
Photos: C-Salt
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe,

Wish I knew more about Honda engineering decisions. Your take is probably a good one. I've owned the EFI 130 and 225, and both work great. Of course, being of the old 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' school -- don't see a huge rush. Honda meets all the specs for a few years with carbs and has time to do a lot of home work. Of course they are able to sell all the carbs they can make, so...

Because I've run both Yami and Honda at the same h.p. for many hours on similar boats, don't really see an immediate need to go EFI. More economical? No. Quieter? No. More reliable? No. More powerful? No. Less maintenance? No. More amps? Yep, if that matters. Has never been a problem for me.

On down the EPA highway there will be a need, no doubt. One of the reasons I'm getting the E-TEC is to take a hard look at the latest technology. Less oil in the pristine lakes than any 4-stroke, much less maintenance, and hopefully better longevity - And that's a questionmark for sure.

Hope I can hang around until the E-TEC breaks!!

Dusty
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Sea Wolf



Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 8650
City/Region: Redding
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 1987
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sea Wolf
Photos: Sea Wolf
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dusty- Thanks for the comments and very well taken points! Not trying to be argumentative, but just jostling about with friends. Hope Les gets your new CD-22 and E-TEC together soon. Too bad it couldn't have been ready for your birthday! Joe.
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Sea Wolf, C-Brat #31
Lake Shasta, California

"Most of my money I spent on boats and women. The rest I squandered'. " -Annonymous
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Sawdust



Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 1400
City/Region: Oak Harbor
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1984
C-Dory Model: 22 Classic
Photos: C-Salt
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe -

Agree totally with you. If buying for long term Wink, and my long term is different, I'd surely consider EFI as an option. Sooner or later they all will be there. At the moment having good dealer support is IMO more important than brands or gadgets... and I've had so little trouble with carbs that I'm definitely biased. Some folks have had starting problems with the carbs because the newer ones are set so danged lean - but as I check folks out with their new rigs, it doesn't take long to learn how to get the carb motors started quickly.

Duster
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rhys



Joined: 31 Jan 2004
Posts: 19
City/Region: Lake Union, Seattle
C-Dory Year: 1987
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Island Flyer
Photos: Island Flyer
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have two batteries with a switch, to isolate one bank for starting. I also got a small solar charger (about $85) at West Marine that is mounted on the cabin top, and the trickle charge keeps them at full charge when the boat is just sitting.
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Island Flyer
Lake Union and Stuart Island, Washington
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C-WEED



Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Posts: 338
City/Region: New Brockton
State or Province: AL
C-Dory Year: 2000
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Weed
Photos: C-WEED
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I put a charging rectifier on my 15H.P. with alligator clip leads. When not using the kicker the leads stay cliped to the steering cable. If I ever end up dead I can charge either battery from the kicker and still use the other battery for cabin needs. And get good fuel economy doing it.
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Redƒox
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ARG!! More "reliable" absolutely YES!!! (EFI) The problem with carbs is always the same ---getting to know the trick of the choke--- Some peeps just cant get why and how to fiddle with a warm 4-stroke or warm 2- stroke engine when it coughs and does not like warm starts though out the day. In the sense that your partner might flood your boat and run down the battery, or your float (in your carb') gets stuck or jambed with crap (small derbis) then certainly the EFI's are more reliable.
Out of all the wrenching I have done on engines; (small and large) carburation has been a high-maintainance factor.
Going on RedFox's 5th year now on her 2000 EFI 115 Fourstroke, and zero EFI problems.
So there...
Now; don't bug me again on this Disgust ... (hehehe) Wink Laughing

Joe. you said it perfectly! I can't touch that one, less I get time to write more on the subject... Crook


Greg ("get a Yamaha---get the girl") Smile !!
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Larry H



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 2041
City/Region: Tulalip,
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1991
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Photos: Nancy H
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi guys

It seems to me that the real problem with reliability is in the gas tank!!

Old gas, water in the gas, rust or other crud in the gas can stop either EFI or carb motors.

If you have carb problems, you might be able to clean it at sea if you have the tools and skill.

The EFI is supposed to be protected by its filters. Can they be changed at sea?

A good Racor type filter system may be the best protection, along with keeping the fuel fresh, and treated to prevent gumming.

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Larry H

A C-Brat since Nov 1, 2003
Ranger Tug 27 ex 'Jacari Maru' 2017 - 2022
Puget Trawler 37 ex 'Jacari Maru' 2006-2017
1991 22' Cruiser, 'Nancy H'--1991-2006
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Redƒox
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:04 am    Post subject: hehehehehe Reply with quote

Nope... everything I have had, has had the same filtration and the EFI has always been the winner, hands down.
It don't matter it it's automotive, marine, or motorcycle... same issues. Reliability: and there is never a stupid-assed choke to develop a 6th sense for either .... HA HA HA !!! cold hard fact mister Wink

(Honda -- overrated and outdated) Xmas Tongue Moon
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Sawdust



Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 1400
City/Region: Oak Harbor
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1984
C-Dory Model: 22 Classic
Photos: C-Salt
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The old guy can't understand why you defend that Yami-anchor. Rolling Eyes Been running Hondas for 18 years and never had a carb choke problem. No problems with my Yamis either.

Larry is right on. Bum gas, crud, water, will kill any of them. Good filter system helps a lot, but gas goes stale quickly -- and gas left in a carb engine too long will mess up big time.

The new Honda 135/150 will really get your attention, Greg, because it's a lean-burn economical jewel. Bring me a bag of that Injun Candy next time you come down and I'll show ya.

Sure wish I could be out there with a snowmachine following you (only nice trails please) -- and great, great pics.

Beer Hug fer mom

Dusty

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Redƒox
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 1:36 pm    Post subject: Way of topic!! LOLOLOLOL :P Reply with quote

Ahh, the “carburetor club” again. That’s whats really happening behind the scenes here; is the old ‘carburetor club’ (in secret, Honda club) rushing to defend it’s old outdated favorite. Me thinks, like C-Dory, their “stuck-in-the-past”.

Put simply: Carburetors, because of their little orifices (air ducts) that faces the flow of air from the airbox, get clogged by floating particles; making the carb’ vulnerable to an element that EFI is not: debris/dust/even snow! (whatever makes it’s way past the filters or labyrinth-ducting in the airbox) Most the time this takes a while but eventually happens! Another vulnerability for carbs’ is storage: Carbs need extra precautions in storage because there is air in the carb’ that will evaporate the fuel in them and turn the gas into varnish over time.

As for me: The majority of all small and large engine repairs, maintenance and tuning, have been due to this issue; clogged carburetor ports; due to not just FUEL, but the AIR they need, to function properly. This is one of the obvious reasons EFI or just even FI is so much more reliable; they simply don’t have them fine little carburetor ducts to get plugged by any air-born particle!

I have seen the insides of so dang many (PITA) carbs in my history as “mechanic” I hate them!! (as is obvious) Then I digress, they are good for a “living”. I would not wish a carburetor on anyone, especially anyone that has no inclination for manual chock (or even a choke-system of any kind) to use my boat when I am not there to know why it’s not starting for them.

Maybe some day when old Honda’s warehouse of carbs has finally been depleted, we can see more of what the public really wants from C-Dory. EFI!

Of the record: Dusty thanx, I to wish you could ‘cowboy-up and see the country up here in winter. Mom is doin fine, I always relay your e-hugs to her. She is entertained.
Wink
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terraplane



Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 524
City/Region: chesapeake bay
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: R-25 Tug
Vessel Name: BANJO
Photos: Sally's Sister
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:41 pm    Post subject: batteries Reply with quote

I'm a new owner, 22, in April. I just assumed there were two batteries included...not so?
Should i amend the order and add a second? I do have shore power and charger on the order...and the boat will be mostly at a slip..i won't have a trailer.

tom
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Bluecrab



Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Posts: 103
City/Region: Chestertown, Maryland's Eastern Shore
State or Province: MD
C-Dory Year: 2004
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Lizzie Ann
Photos: Lizzie Ann
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect that different dealers rig the boats differently. I believe Cutter installs two batteries as standard equipment, a very good idea. You could check with Ruthie, but I think all of their spec sheets specify two.
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Lizzie Ann
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dogon dory



Joined: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 1321

State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: DogOnDory
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, Folks - Post Deleted By Author

Last edited by dogon dory on Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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TyBoo



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 5310
City/Region: Warrenton
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 1996
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruise Ship
Vessel Name: TyBoo
Photos: TyBoo
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I had me a Honda 75, and after two or three tries figuring out the choke/throttle ideal for cold starting, it was no problem for 900 hours. Now I got me a Honda 130 with more wires than fuel hoses, and I gotta admit it starts quicker, but it doesn't run any better (can't get any better).

My first experience with fuel injection was on a 1985 Z28. The TPI went haywire, and I couldn't begin to figure it out. So I took it to a shop, where their fancy diagnostic machine said that the mass airflow sensor was for sure bad, and at least one or two other things. But they needed about 400 bucks to replace the MAS before they could finish the diagnostics. I limped home with it, sent about $500 to Summit for an Edelbrock carb and manifold, unpluged and bundled up the computer wires, and sold it when the rear tires wore out (which didn't take long, because that big carb was hot). Plus, I sold the TPI components for $150 and a non-computer distributor.

For the EFI/carb decision on outboards, I'll take whatever the engine size and brand I want comes with. For reasons more superstitious than studied, I want Honda. I'll have to ask Chuckpacific how the saying goes again, but I think the proven practice is: Honda - turn it on, use it, turn it off. Turn it on, use it, turn it off... (Sorry - I just like the sound of that!)

I don't have any advice to offer on the original question, but I have seen those jump start booster for pretty cheap at Costco. I would be skeptical about the Battery Brain as a fail safe. I think two batteries is the best route, and the booster if it feels good. That can be used anywhere. My boat's "battery booster" is a third battery hooked to the 15 hp ( yep - Honda) exclusively. It is one of those Optimas, and it holds its charge for a lot longer than an acid type, even when unused. I do not have it wired into the main/house system, but if ever it was needed for a jump start, it sure wouldn't take long to loosen the nuts and swap the cables.

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Sold: 1996 25' Cruise Ship
Sold: 1987 22' Cruiser
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CheckRaise



Joined: 07 Oct 2004
Posts: 54
City/Region: Kingston, WA
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: CheckRaise
Photos: CheckRaise
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, a question about two batteries on a Perko. The system I inherited has a simple switch (On/Off). I had assumed that the second battery just passively sat there until you 1) ran down the first and 2) needed to switch to ON and give it a jump from the second.

Until last week. It was after some bitter cold and inactivity. With the switch in its normal OFF position, the port engine couldn't even trim. Meanwhile, the starboard engine trimmed and started normally. I never did get the port engine going until I switched the Perko to ON. This leaves me wondering how the heck it's wired.

So first of all...is this normal?

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