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Chuck S
Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 309
City/Region: Cleveland
State or Province: OH
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 16 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Amelia Anne
Photos: Amelia Anne
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 Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:43 am Post subject: |
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The Raymarine plotters use Navionic CF cards storing an astounding amount of data. They also cover regions, like the Ohio River, that no other product covers.
-- Chuck |
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flagold
Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Posts: 951
City/Region: Abbeville
State or Province: AL
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Dawg-E
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 11:52 am Post subject: |
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That little Matrix covers it all, but on the small chips and there's only one screen size (7"). The loaded basemap goes to greater detail for the entire US (1/2 again more detail) than any others, although the unit is primarilly a bottomfinder with charting thrown in. I view the higher end units as great all the way around (which we pay dearly for of course). Agreed, the big chips cover a lot of real-estate in great detail.
Back to the C-70/80/etc. If you're looking at another mfg for compatable radar in the future, remember, it probably will need a plug on the back of the unit to power or receive data from the dome. Does it have it? If not, I'd be pretty skeptical of everything meshing just right no matter what was said on a sales site.
Garmin: I've flown with Garmin units for over 10 years now -- great units, no doubt, but it is dubious as to whether the older units will allow update to radar integration if there's no plug for it on the back and no software updates (I realize they might update software over I-net). |
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Pat Anderson
Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 8553
City/Region: Birch Bay, WA
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Daydream
Photos: Daydream and Crabby Lou
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| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:15 am Post subject: |
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That is exactly the difference between the Garmin 2006/2010 and the 3006/3010 - the "plug" (and of course some internal circuits) for the addition of the Garmin radar.
| flagold wrote: |
Garmin: I've flown with Garmin units for over 10 years now -- great units, no doubt, but it is dubious as to whether the older units will allow update to radar integration if there's no plug for it on the back and no software updates (I realize they might update software over I-net). |
_________________
DAYDREAM - CD25 Cruiser
CRABBY LOU - CD16 Angler (sold 2020)
Pat & Patty Anderson, C-Brat #62!
http://daydreamsloop.blogspot.com
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Alyssa Jean
Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 2375
City/Region: Guemes Is.(Anacortes)
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 16 Angler
Vessel Name: Alyssa Jean
Photos: Anna Leigh and Alyssa Jean
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| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:44 am Post subject: |
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Am stopping in at Boater World today on my way back home and "play" with the C80. I think it is plug-in on the back for radar.
_________________
David and Kate
Alyssa Jean 16 Angler
Anna Leigh 22 Cruiser Sold 2005
Anna Leigh 25 Cruiser Sold 2014
K7KJR C-Brats #51 |
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Les Lampman
Dealer
Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 779
City/Region: Whidbey Island
State or Province: WA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| Scotty wrote: | Can somebody please explain the MARPA feature of the C80 system? Is a big deal not to get this feature with the Raymarine system? Thanks.
Scott |
Hi everyone,
I'll wade in here with the caveat that there's no "one" solution for every boat (or her crew).
The first problem with radar is that it puts you (as the captain) in a different legal position than without it; you're required to use it if it's on board (in reduced visibility) and to avoid collisions with it (even if the other vessel is "at fault"); which leads to the second problem...most of us don't get enough "screen time" to really stay good at interpreting the radar screen and corelating what we see there with our charts, and simultaneously figure out the "threat" level.
In my opinion, the best argument for the newer integrated systems is the ability of the radar to overlay the chart...this is not even close to being a gimmick and almost instantly gives folks that don't spend much time on a radar screen a better-than-good chance of figuring out what's really on the screen. In inland waters (like Puget Sound, Chesapeake Bay, Florida Keys, etc) and coastal waters, well over 90% of what's on the radar screen are fixed objects...shoreline, piers, markers, buoys, etc. Since the fixed objects are instantly identified with the radar overlay that only leaves the operator working with the 'targets' that are not associated with something on the chart.
MARPA (and ARPA) up the ante with the ability to fix a target (up to 10 typically) and compute that target's course, speed, closet point of approach, and time to closest point of approach. But the thing I feel is most outstanding about that is that the system (at least the Raymarine) draws on the screen a course vector. Without even looking at the MARPA data or puzzling over the target on the screen you see immediately (and with no further analysis) whether or not there is a potential collision. Now, with the vector on the screen just because a target is in the upper right quadrant of your radar screen you don't have to freak out trying to figure out whether or not to give way (not even a concern if the vector is pointing away from your vessel). And since MARPA (ARPA) gives you a target's speed you can tell wether you're dealing with a slow trawler or a fast moving threat. Safety parameters can also be set on the MARPA system so if you get busy with other things and aren't watching closely enough the system will alarm when the target is deemed "dangerous" (based on your parameters).
On a large ship all the activities get spread out; someone is steering, another is plotting a course, another is watching the radar, another is listening, yet another is commanding. On our boats all those activities and responsiblities are heaped onto the person in the helm seat. Integrated systems are the best way I know of to even the odds and reduce the stress level to a management situation rather than pure stress. That's not to say you can't use the "old-fashioned" ways of doing things and that they are no longer viable...they certainly are. But to operate safely, efficiently and without stress with older systems it takes the time and dedication to learn and practice; time that I believe few (percentage-wise) folks that aren't professional skippers put in.
Since I strongly believe in "safety first" and that pleasure boats are for fun and being stressed-out and scared is not fun (YMMV), it is my opinion that if you're going to add radar to your small boat and you're not already an expert radar operator (and aren't going to take the training to become one) there is nothing better you can do for yourself and your crew than to install an integrated system in your boat. [That doesn't necessarily mean depth but certainly the chart and radar.] This is easier on a brand-new boat certainly and those with boats already will have to look at their individual circumstances and use and assess whether or not an upgrade is in order.
I've never made money selling electronics and probably never will; my recommendations are always based on safety aspects (because I've "been there, done that") and on finding ways to maximize the use of one's boat. You'll use your boat more, and use it with more confidence, if you know you can leave and get home safely.
Harware is hardware...it doesn't make any difference whether you choose Raymarine, Furuno, Garmin, Simrad, Lowrance or others; whatever system you choose there are thousands of folks using and enjoying it. As in all electronics we hit "leap-frog" points where one manufacturer brings out something that 'leaps' ahead of the others for a short period. Raymarine did this with the "C" series this last year. The Furuno NavNet system is just as good but is more expensive (I've heard rumors of a price drop). Garmin is outstanding, they just haven't had the radar part of the puzzle until now; the pricing on their 2kw dome seems to be very high (several hundred dollars more than Raymarine) but the 4kw dome is pretty competitive. With the new 3000-series displays that ought to be a very good system indeed.
We've concentrated on the Raymarine system because they did get the 'leap' this last year and they also offer autopilots and VHF radios. We can install a "complete" system utilizing the C-80 and the autopilot less expensively then choosing other systems at the moment and the 8.4" color screen seems to fit well with our installations. I have no (zero, nada, zip) reservations about installing other systems (Furuno, Simrad, Garmin) and would happily use any of them for my self.
Really, the "which is better" question is moot...they're all superb and you can't make a bad choice. Most important is something you have to check out in person; what's the screen look like and can you see it? Can you press the buttons or are they too recessed or too close together? Will if fit where you want it to? Can you get a chart chip (or CD) for your area? As much as I like Lowrance depth sounders and their new compact chartplotters combo units I couldn't have one on my boat; I can't see the screen which makes it pretty useless. This is a totally personal and subjective matter and I would never recommend against them; only point out that the individual buyer should get themselves in front of a display to make sure it works for them.
As usual, this is longer than I intended! 
_________________
Les
www.marinautboats.com |
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Les Lampman
Dealer
Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 779
City/Region: Whidbey Island
State or Province: WA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| Anna Leigh wrote: | | Am stopping in at Boater World today on my way back home and "play" with the C80. I think it is plug-in on the back for radar. |
The C-80 is what is now referred to as an MFD (Multi Function Display) as oppossed to a "radar' or a "charplotter", etc. The support for all it's peripherals is built in; one simply "plugs-in" the depth sounder or the radar on the back of the unit. The RayStar 120 WAAS GPS is a SeaTalk unit and shares it's information with all SeaTalk enabled Raymarine units. The SeaTalk signal from the RayStar 120 comes into the "C" series MFDs through their SeaTalk port (a plug is supplied with the units). |
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Byrdman
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3320
City/Region: Cumberland River, Clarksville,
State or Province: WA
Vessel Name: " ? " After Rename Ceremony
Photos: FreeByrd and C-Byrd
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| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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Yea....what he said...
Great job as usual Les. It was great to see you at the show. Tell Kathy at the shop I said hey, and throw the toy for the dogs. Would love to hear from you when you get the TC25 in your shop and powered up. Both myself and brother Mike who came out to the show are looking and waiting.
Pat "Byrdman" on FreeByrd, TC24, Hull #51 |
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Da Nag
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 2819
City/Region: Port Angeles
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 16 Angler
Vessel Name: Taco
Photos: <a>Da Boats</a>
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| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Les Lampman wrote: |
The C-80 is what is now referred to as an MFD (Multi Function Display) as oppossed to a "radar' or a "charplotter", etc. The support for all it's peripherals is built in; one simply "plugs-in" the depth sounder or the radar on the back of the unit. |
When my boat was being built, the Raymarine C-Series came out after I had already purchased the seperates - RL70CRC, etc. Needless to say, I was a little concerned that the expensive system I just bought was being replaced...
A call to Raymarine cleared this up - the C-Series was not replacing the seperates, but for folks who didn't need multi-display capabilities (like us), it seemed to be a sensible alternative.
However, there are a couple other differences between the C-Series and the seperates that might be a consideration for some. First, the RL70x displays are portrait, not landscape like the C-Series. More important to me are the chips used for cartography - C-Map NT+ vs. Navionics Gold.
Reason being - last I checked, there were no PC capabilites for the Navionics chips. C-Map on the other hand, has a pretty slick reader/PC software combination for the C-Map cartridges - PC Planner. It's not quite as slick as the Garmin PC tools (MapSource), but it's the only option I know of for PC-side planing for the RayMarine integrated systems.
My guess is this will change over time, but if PC planning is important to you, and you want an integrated system, you might want to investigate this further.
Also, for those of you who read about the problems many vendors had with legally obtaining Canadian cartography data last year, it appears this mess has finally been cleared up. The monopolist (NDI) who had sole control over the data (already paid for by Canadian citizens), was insisting on making outrageous price increases to the licensees of the data. It appears their exclusive contract with the Canadian government has been terminated - things should be back to normal before too long. Here's the official statement - read the FAQ linked on that page to see how the decision affects both C-Map and Navionics Canadian cartography.
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 Will, C-Brat Nerd |
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El and Bill
Joined: 08 Nov 2003
Posts: 3200
City/Region: Lakewood, CO
State or Province: CO
C-Dory Year: 2000
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Halcyon
Photos: Halcyon
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| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the informative posting, Les. Clear, concise, and a great summary of the recent electronics changes.
_________________
El and Bill (former live-aboards)
Halcyon 2000 CD 22 Bought 2000 Sold 2012
http://cruisingamerica-halcyondays.com/ |
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Bess-C
Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 459
City/Region: Anacortes
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Bess-C
Photos: Bess-C
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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Boy Pat, I wish you hadn't brought this up. I've been happily using our Garmin 2006 for two years now. I am scheduled to take the boat to Les's in March for installation of radar and canvas. I was going with a low end radar (Furuno 1715). Now this discussion and Les's comments have me second guessing my decision. Am I going to be dissatisfied if I put $1500 into low end monochrome radar? Should I sell my 2006 and go with either the Raymarine C80 or the Garmin 3006 with radar to get the integrated features?
The Garmin system has XM Satellite weather radio as an option, the Raymarine has autopilot as an option. My head's spinning, but it doesn't look like I'm likely to get out of this cheaply. Anybody interested in a low mileage Garmin 2006 with sounder that's only been driven on weekends?
Lyle
_________________
Bess-C 25 C-Dory sold 6/09
Bessie 46 Westcoast 6/09
Baby Dory 14 C-Dory 3/11
17 Center Console C-Dory 10/16 |
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Captains Cat
Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 7313
City/Region: Cod Creek>Potomac River>Chesapeake Bay
State or Province: VA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Captain's Choice II
Photos: Captain's Cat
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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Don't let the autopilot be the deciding factor. My Raymarine ST6001 autopilot works fine with my Garmin 182C.
Charlie
_________________
CHARLIE and PENNY CBRAT #100
Captain's Cat II 2005 22 Cruiser
Thataway (2006 TC255 - Sold Aug 2013)
Captain's Cat (2006 TC255 - Sold January 2012)
Captain's Kitten (1995 CD 16 Angler- Sold June 2010)
Captain's Choice (1994 CD 22 Cruiser- Sold Jun 2007)
Potomac River/Chesapeake Bay
K4KBA |
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Sawdust
Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 1400
City/Region: Oak Harbor
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1984
C-Dory Model: 22 Classic
Photos: C-Salt
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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Charlie, Charlie --
Have you tried it in the water? 
Dusty
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1984 22 Classic |
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Captains Cat
Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 7313
City/Region: Cod Creek>Potomac River>Chesapeake Bay
State or Province: VA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Captain's Choice II
Photos: Captain's Cat
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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Well no, but it got me down to the end of the driveway... Forgot to add that I've also got a Raymarine Radar but my GPS is what feeds positions to the AP, I think...  What the heck, I've only got a couple of EE degrees... Maybe that means eeeeeeeeek  Come to think on it, the Radar has a gps too....and I'm hooked up via SeaTalk. Haven't seen the boat since Sept, maybe the Garmin is hooked up to the VHF for the DSC function, or maybe the portapotti.... 
De neck bone connected to the knee bone....
Charlie |
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Sawdust
Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 1400
City/Region: Oak Harbor
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1984
C-Dory Model: 22 Classic
Photos: C-Salt
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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Lyle,
Only one way to solve all of this. My C80 will be installed and the 22-boat in the water soon (prayers attached)... when she floats I'll call -- Bring Shelley, come on over and play, play, play. "Hands on" is the only way to evaluate these complex toys. If you folks plan to boat out of Twin Bridges, prolly a good idea to be fog-proof.
Dusty |
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Sawdust
Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 1400
City/Region: Oak Harbor
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1984
C-Dory Model: 22 Classic
Photos: C-Salt
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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Gee Lyle,
Forgot to add the postscript.
$$$$$$$$$$$$
Dusty |
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