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Bedding for a windlass
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AK Angler



Joined: 18 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:11 am    Post subject: Bedding for a windlass Reply with quote

In the next couple of days, I'll be replacing the broken Sprint 400 windlass on my CC26 with a new V700. I have a couple of choices on hand for bedding the new windlass: Life Calk and Bed-It butyl tape. Given these choices, which would you use?
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89CD16A- The Navicula has been sold...
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SGIDave



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Rod,

I'm a big fan of butyl tape for bedding deck hardware - so that would be my preference. Especially after reading the tutorial on PBase (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/rebedding_hardware). The tape works AT LEAST as well as any compound that you squirt out of a tube but is FAR LESS messy and wasteful.

Don't forget to chamfer your holes!

Fair Winds and Sealed deck penetrations!

dave
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thataway



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Dave, I would surely recommend that all of the penetrations in the deck be epoxy sealed by routing out the core, and filling with epoxy. (Also particularly true of windlass, where there is compressive load put on deck core).

If you are using the Butyl tape, I would be sure that the bolts are checked for tightness regularly ( I use some blue loctite on the threads), because the tape seal depends on keeping pressure. Be sure that the area around the hole in the deck which the rode passes thru, also has a good seal with the butyl tape. This means that the deck should be flat and fair (non skid removed--either ground off, and faired, or filled with thick epoxy, and faired)

I have also used Boat Life Life Seal. Life Caulk works, but has a longer drying time (Polysulfide). Either are more tolerant of irregularities in the deck surface than the butyl tape.

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AK Angler



Joined: 18 Nov 2003
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City/Region: South Central
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the input Dave. That's the direction I was leaning, unless there was a significant contingent that advised against it. Now I just have to figure out how to pry the old unit off the foredeck. It seems to want to stay where it is. Maybe a bottle jack pushing from underneath will help... Shocked
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thataway



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I assume that the old bedding compound is unknown. Antibond 2015 is universal in removing not only 5200, but almost any other urethane or polysulfide. (This adhesion issue and potential damage to the gel coat, is a reason to consider Life Seal over Life Caulk for an item which may need to be removed for service or replacement)

Quote:
This special formula is effective for removing adhesives and sealants. Anti Bond softens polyurethane and polysulfide adhesive sealants without damaging rigid parts or substrates such as gelcoat. After applying 2015, allow a few minutes and the joint will separate without damaging materials.


It is cheaper to buy a debonding agent, than repair the gel coat and deck if the sealant is not releasing.
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AK Angler



Joined: 18 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Bob. I hadn't though about using a debonding agent. I wonder where I could get something like that...?
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AK Angler



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And, just a thought here... but, I don't really need to seal the windlass to the deck, do I? I mean, so what if water weeps in underneath and drips into the anchor locker? Now, sealing the exposed edges of the deck core itself, that's another matter. I'll definitely be addressing that situation in order to keep the core sound.
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AK Angler



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well... I rigged up a heat gun pointing at the old windlass, and in the 3 or 4 minutes it took to set up a bottle jack in the anchor locker, the windlass was warm and the sealant was soft enough that I could have just pushed it up by hand. No harm, no foul. Now I just have to clean up the old sealant and get to the business of installing the new unit. And, the deck on the CC is smooth where the windlass mounts, so I don't have any raised non-skid to worry about.

Hmmm... This seems too easy. What am I missing?
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thataway



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds good--go for it! Is the bolt pattern the same on the 400 and 700? I believe it is on the 600. You will like the 700 much better!
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AK Angler



Joined: 18 Nov 2003
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City/Region: South Central
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its almost a direct swap. The main cut-out is identical, except for the need to make an additional bump-out about the size of half a dime to clear a cast boss in the new unit. And two of the three mounting holes line up correctly. In fact, the new aluminum backing plate has holes for both bolt patterns in it. So, I'll need to drill one hole and use the dremel for about 5 minutes to bolt the unit on. Of course that means I'll have a tiny bit of epoxy work to do to seal the exposed core. But that's not too bad. Hopefully I'll have it done tonight.

Last edited by AK Angler on Fri Dec 12, 2014 8:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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AK Angler



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a comparison between the new backing plate that came with the v700 (top) and the old backing plate that was installed with the S400 (bottom).



And this is the new backing plate sitting on top of the old one. You can see the 'bump-out' in the new plate, as well as the additional bolt hole I'll need to drill.



If I didn't have to drill a new hole, I'd seriously consider just cutting the boss off of the new windlass so that I wouldn't have to do any work to the deck at all. (The boss really doesn't need to be as long as it is... I don't know why Lewmar cast it like that in the first place.)
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tsturm



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is amazing what a little bit of heat gun work will do with 5200.
I once removed my trim tabs for bottom paint, took out all the screws, pry/pull like hell, bent one mounting flange, 60seconds with the heat gun, pulled right off. Rolling Eyes Mr. Green Mr. Green
Have a good one.
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journey on



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Her's where you can order Debond.

First Hamilton Marine @ $21 plus postage.

Or, West Marine @ $38 plus tax.

Either place gets you DEBOND 2000 AEROSOL 12 OZ MARINE FORMULA REMOVER.

Boris
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AK Angler



Joined: 18 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tsturm - I don't know if the existing bedding/sealer was 5200 or not. But, a bit of heat certainly did the trick. I'll be keeping that de-bonding method in my tool bag for sure.

Boris - Thanks for the info on ordering debonder. Maybe next time I have a quick project I'll have had the foresight to have some on hand...



Here's a quick update: At this point, I've drilled the new bolt hole, cut the 'bump-out', and removed all the old sealer. (It appears that the same material that was used as bedding was also used to seal the existing bolt holes and exposed deck core for the cut-out.) It was pretty easy to remove the sealer using a Dremel and sanding drum. During this process, I also undercut the core a bit. Then I sealed all the newly exposed core with some neat epoxy. I used a Q-Tip dipped in epoxy to get good coverage inside the bolt holes, and a toothbrush to 'scrub' the neat epoxy into the exposed balsa around the big hole. After a bit, I mixed up a batch of epoxy thickened to almost a peanut butter consistency with microfibers, and used a syringe to inject it into the bolt holes. I then used that same material to fill the undercut edge of the big hole.

Here's a couple of helpful hints regarding the methods I used: I stuck some blue painter's tape on the underside of the hole(s) to prevent any drips into the anchor locker. And, since it's cold here (about 25F), I put an electric heater in the anchor locker to warm the deck and help cure the epoxy. Also, when not actively working on the project, I used a 5-gallon bucket turned up-side down over the hole to help keep the heat I was generating in the anchor locker from just blowing away through the windlass hole. It worked well, and was a lot easier than trying to rig up a tarp to work under/in. Plus, there was less space to have to heat.

At this point, I'm waiting for the epoxy to cure to the 'green' stage so I can re-drill the bolt holes and clean up any errant epoxy around the big hole. Then, I'll just drop the new windlass into the re-worked hole (properly bedded, of course), snug down the bolts, and connect the wiring. For now (since I'm trying to get this done before I head out on the water on Monday), I'll probably just use the existing high-current switch, simply because that's the way the old windlass was wired (and it's an accepted installation method according to the instructions for the new V700). But, since the new unit came with a low-current switch and contactor, I'll eventually re-wire the system using those components. If the weather isn't cooperating, and it looks like I won't get out on Monday, I'll probably just install the new switching components and be done with it.

Almost done!
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Sunbeam



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like you're cranking right along Thumbs Up

AK Angler wrote:

At this point, I'm waiting for the epoxy to cure to the 'green' stage so I can re-drill the bolt holes and clean up any errant epoxy around the big hole.


I'm curious about this part, because, while I clean up, chisel flat, etc. when in the green stage, I usually wait until it's mostly cured to drill new holes. I mean, not fully cured necessarily, but past the green stage. Thinking though, maybe it makes less dust your way - more like cutting hard cheese.

Sunbeam
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