Questions re hot surge brakes

cemiii · Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:13 pm Post subject:

Though it is always best to completely repack a bearing with fresh hi-temp lithium complex marine grease, here is a link to a table of grease type compatibility.

http://www.easternmarine.com/em_store/tech_info/wheelhub_tech_info.html

thataway · Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:01 pm Post subject:

I don't subscribe to the needing all of the brakes you can going down hill. Yes, you MAY need brakes, and that is the reason I suggested the lock out of the selenoid. I would rather lock out the brakes, than burn up the brakes and burn out the hubs...if I had my choice.

Again, I very rarely use brakes going down hill, even on grades like the Grapevine. I have taken large boats down these grades without duing the trailer brakes. This is by going slow at the top, applying brakes in short bursts to keep the speed at a managable level, and never exceeding a basic speed. For example 50 miles an hour. There is a reason that some grades have speed limits of 35 MPH going down the grade for big trucks. Engine compression can keep most trucks and SUV's slowed down (even diesels). The switch technique, allows you to have brakes when you need them, and if you don't, then you won't heat up the surge brakes.

journey on · Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:13 am Post subject:

Ah yes, the Grapevine. They have a truck only lane, with escape ramps. Going down that lane is an experience. The traffic in the next lane over is going 70 since cars can use it. And then when you're going at 35, you come up on a truck doing 25. So you either slow down, using your brakes as lightly as possible, cause it's a long way down that hill, or you move into the next lane over and pray you don't get rear-ended.

I did bring Journey On down US 40 into Steamboat Springs without trailer brakes. Blown fuse cause of electrical problems, since fixed. I was the slowest one down, until I met a slower RV. Smoked the truck brakes, but they did the job. I have a lot more respect for Ford disk brakes now.

I would vote for all the brakes I can get all the time.

Also, remember to throw the lock out switch OFF, just BEFORE that emergency.

Boris

jhwilson · Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:01 am Post subject:

All of your posts are appreciated and make good sense. I think I am going to apply Dr. Bob's philosophy when routinely towing downhill from my home at 5,000 feet elevation. There are two routes down, one on the NC side and the other on the Tenn. side. The route down the Tenn. side is about 7 miles of downhill switchbacks with practically no level relief. The trip down the NC side is 10 miles but it has intermittent level and less winding areas.

In the steep slope, winding areas on both sides it is not an option to not gear down, towing or not. When towing the boat I have attempted to do what has been suggested here. That is begin the decent slowly (20 mph) in first or second (auto tranny) and brake only when necessary. Even then the degree of slope on the Tenn. side apparently causes the surge brakes to be applied for most of the decent thus the 200 degree hub temp.

I believe I can lock out the brakes for the seven miles at 20 mph and still have sufficient braking power from my Tundra. I'm going to first try the C-clamp and if it feels okay go with the lockout switch which I agree is a better solution.

Thanks again for all of the input and please add anything else that comes to mind. I'll let you know how the "experiment" goes later this week.

Harper

thataway · Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:52 am Post subject:

Ford Disc brakes--I have them on my Excursion and RV--and I have over 50,000 miles on the RV, and still have good rotors and pads (didn't have that same luck on the GM chassis). The Excursion brakes are not quite as massive, but still are very substantial. I don't know when they were replaced, but were like new 20,000 miles ago when I got the vehicle, and still have plenty of pad left.

I have yet to over heat the brakes on these vehicles, but I did spent a lot of time driving some large trucks in the mountains (steeper grades than interstates) many years ago and learned to keep the speeds down. It frightens me when I see large trucks riding their brakes--and the burning brake pad smell is present! I think the US freeway system has a limit of 6% grades. Canada seems to have more 8 % grades than we do--but that may just be my perception.

I see the trailer brakes as being essential for an emergency stop. That is why the lock out electrical only on a temporary basis seems like the best idea--only when you have long descents and the trailer brakes would heat up--not for normal driving.

I have been very pleasantly surprised as to how courtious other drivers have been to towing the C Dory 25 (and Tom Cat). I do have the extra light bar on the transom, with LED lights--and it probably is more noticable than the low trailer turn and brake lights.

gljjr · Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:44 pm Post subject:

Jack in Alaska · Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:57 pm Post subject:

My original solution to blocking out the brakes was a short piece of 2x4 held in place with a bungee cord. Since then I have gone high tech using a 1/8" valve in my brake line just after the elec. solenoid.
The valve is shut off after I park the trailer waiting on the tractor boat launcher to hook-up to put me into the water. When the tractor tries to push my empty trailer up the beach to park it the brakes would lock up causing the wheels to slide........not good. This valve solves that problem.
I have a big BRAKES sign on the tongue by the hitch to remind me to open it when hitching up.

Flyer · Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:15 pm Post subject:

A couple of things: I one time lost the brakes on a 25 foot travel trailer, we stopped safely and made it home without the brakes. I had to stop and let the brakes on the 2500 series Suburban cool off. If you lose you brakes in the mountains, its no casual matter, you need to get that sucker slowed down and its not that easy. My gears did not match up well with slow or fast traffic speed.

On your controller, the spring that controls the master cylinder on the trailer may not be the right one. I would talk to the manufacturer.

As far as it goes, why jerry rig, I know its cheaper and more fun, if your brakes are not working right, just get an electric over hydraulic controller and be done with it.

The last thing you want to do is explain what you did or did not do in an damage, injury or death situation.

thataway · Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:54 pm Post subject:

I saw an interesting set up on a "U Haul" flat bed heavy duty trailer today on the road. Didn't get a close up look, but it had springs, and a threaded rod so you could adjust the tension and travel of the surge brakes. It was not just the shock absorber type of damper, but limited the travel and had a spring against the coupler. I suspect that with a setup like this you could set the surge brakes for light duty when going down steep grades.

I suspect that the U haul dealer can set up the surge brakes for the load.

jhwilson · Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:05 pm Post subject:

Well, we picked up Placid C yesterday morning from the mechanic who had inspected the bearings and brakes and repacked the bearings, of course, among some other engine service. He said there was no damage to the bearings or brakes. We spent a great day cruising Holston Lake for the first time. Wish we could have spent the night but I had to be in the office today.

We returned home over the same route that led to the heated brakes earlier. I had planned to lock the surge brakes out with a C clamp on the steep decent but decided to see how they did sans the water in the hubs. It did fine. No over heating at all. So, what I have to do to preclude the heating again is to ensure the hubs have sufficient grease and to allow them to cool if they are hot at launch time.

Thanks again for all the help.

Harper

toyman · Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:03 am Post subject:

IF you decide to use a switch to lockout the brakes I'd use a spring loaded switch so it acts as a "Dead Man Switch" and everything returns to normal as soon as it is released.

VicC · Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:22 pm Post subject: Hot surge brakes

I am using this thread to bring up my issue with extremely hot hubs. I have a single axle, disc brakes with a UFP A-70 surge actuator. I replaced my calipers & pads last year. I just recently replaced all bearings and races with new. Fresh Lucas Hub oil in the hubs.
The last time I towed the trailer, I immediately checked the hub temps with a heat temp gun. The hubs were over 170. I shot the rotors and they were 245!!
This past weekend, I jacked up the trailer to find that the brakes were still engaged. I removed the actuator to do a little troubleshooting. The shock absorber and piston rod did not appear to be hanging up. What I do believe is the culprit is the pushrod release bracket. It would not budge when pushed. I am sure that there is not much there mechanically, but unfortunately the housing that it resides in makes any cleaning or inspecting impossible.
I am getting ready to purchase a new actuator assembly. I thought I would check with the panel of experts here to see if anyone else has had a similar problem with the actuator. I know many will advise on going the EOH route, but I think I am going to stick with a surge actuator. Thanks

thataway · Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:40 pm Post subject:

The times I have had similar problems with surge brakes were after a long downhill run, where I was using engine compression (diesel) to slow the truck down. The break calipers were constantly being closed by the trailer pushing against the truck on the down grade.

The accentuater being hung up, would cause the same type of symptoms. I suspect in your case that there is probably both rust and some debris/dirt, oil etc in that area. If you cannot clean this out with solvents and compressed air Ihe 130 PSI range, I would probably replace the unit. It may be worth shooting mineral spirits or WD 40 (can be bought in gallon cans) in the accessible parts, and flush, then work the accentuated back and forth with the truck hooked up, trailer wheels blocked. --blow out with compressed air... You should be able to see the accentuater moving as you do this.

VicC · Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:12 pm Post subject:

Thank you Dr. Bob. I did shoot the area with a lot of penetrating oil. I am sure that you are correct about rust/crud/etc. buildup that is causing the hanging up of the brakes. I think that all that is in there is the bracket and a return spring.
I already have the replacement UFP A-75 in an online shopping cart.

hardee · Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:31 pm Post subject:

I jack my trailer up to get the tires off the concrete, and take the weight off the bearings when I store my boat. I noticed that the wheels do not spin far after I stop spinning the wheel. I asked about that at the mechanics, "shouldn't the wheel keep spinning, because I thought the drag was way to stiff. He said that the brakes (Kodiak stainless) are not designed to retract from the rotor, only to not apply an increased pressure. So, there is always some drag there. They do not have a spring retraction. Not my favorite method, because I have noticed the same hot brakes on long descents too, and even warm when running on flat ground, they are warmer than the non brake axle.

Harvey
SleepyC Moon