Fuel Pick Up - LONG story

SGIDave · Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:51 pm Post subject: Fuel Pick Up - LONG story

Hello All,

Last week I experienced a fuel delivery problem with on my boat such that I could run my Honda 135 at no more than 2000 rpm otherwise the engine would sputter/stall as if out of gas. I'm neither a savvy nor experienced boater. This turned out to be a learning experience for my family and me. Maybe someone else can avoid a problem such as this...

This was the scenario: We boated approx 30 miles through ICW and other 12 miles around St Joe Bay without trouble. We cruised at least half that time at 4000 rpm. We departed Port St. Joe Marina for home (Apalachicola) on a low port tank; my intention was to switch to the full stb tank en route. Approx 5 miles into the trip home, the engine sputtered as if out of gas. This was anticipated; I switched the fuel selector to stb tank (as I had done many times in the year I've owned this boat) and we cruised on....for about a minute. Then the engine began to sputter/hesitate as if starving for fuel. I squeezed the fuel bulb; after 2 squeezes it stayed flat. I triple-checked the proper orientation of the fuel selector valve. If I switched the fuel selector back to the empty port tank, the fuel bulb immediately re-inflated. It appeared there was a problem with delivery of fuel from stb tank to engine....

I drained the fuel filter from that clear bowl at the bottom of the separator/filter...no water but a few specks of dark material. Fuel filter was last changed in April 2009 about 20 engine hours ago. The fuel filter element and bowl assembly was tight - no air leaks. After a while I got out my spare fuel filter and changed that without improvement in the engine's ability to exceed approx 2000 rpm.

We limped home making 8-10 mph...depending on the current. As long as I didn't get in a hurry and exceed roughly 2000 rpm, the engine ran fine.

NEXT DAY: At Wefings, the mechanic diagnosed the problem as a faulty fuel pick up in the stb tank. Upon removal, the pickup consisted of an semi-rigid piece of white plastic tubing with a slight kink or bend in it. The distal end of the pick up tube was cut at 90 degrees and appeared to suffer from flow restriction due to being flat against the bottom of the fuel tank. The pick up tube was cut an 45 degrees and re-assembled. I took the boat home and pulled the (still empty) port tank which showed the same 90 degree cut fuel pick up tube but lacked a tell-tale bow. I cut it an 45 degree as well.

Boat now runs fine.

Has anyone run into fuel tank pick problems causing lack of fuel delivery to the engine/s? Does anyone routinely pull their fuel pickups to make sure something like this is not likely to happen (i.e., no 90 degree cut tubes stuck up against the bottom of the tank thereby causing a fuel restriction/obstruction)? This was all new to me.

/david

Jazzmanic · Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:14 pm Post subject:

Dave,

I usually need to look at a picture rather than read a description but in this case, your description was explained very well. It totally makes sense, thanks for the heads up.

So far, we haven't had this problem but now I'll know what to look for.

matt_unique · Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:08 pm Post subject: Fuel

Several of us have had to swap out fuel pickup's. In my case the antisiphon valve was sticking a bit causing a noise that sounded like arcing electricity. I suspect this would have ultimately led to fuel starvation. As soon as I replaced it the noise was gone. I was fortunate to notice the symptom before I ended up without a running engine.

Glad you were able to limp home with at least some fuel flow and get the problem solved.

jennykatz · Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:44 am Post subject: fuel pickup

We have a 06 venture (cape cruiser) We have had problems with fuel pickup from the get go last april 08 WE replaced fuel pickups took out the one with 3atmospheres anti siphon valves and replaced the little ball bearing springs anti siphon valves with free flowing pickups usually used for Outboards The pickup valves that were on ours are usually for I/O mercruiser style eng.We also had to cut our tubes at a 45 degree angle . I guess they put those in for liability issues??WE also have a 10 micron water sep that gets changed out every 100hrs along with all filters and oils. We have been able to get about 28 gallons out of our 30 gallon alum tanks
Also just replaced my navman flow meter with a new one getting about 4.0-4.3mpg at 4200-4500rpm

matt_unique · Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:00 am Post subject: Filter

Did you guys have a mesh "screen" filter melted into the bottom of your fuel pickup (hard plastic) hoses? The fuel pickups on my Tomcat have this mesh screen with about a 1/4" clearance as I recall at the very bottom. This would preclude the need to cut the 45 degree angle and I was curious if you guys refastened the mesh screens if you had them.

SGIDave · Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:20 am Post subject:

There was no screen at the end of the white plastic pickup hose...just a bare hose. I don't think there was an anti-siphon valve either.

When I refilled the "empty" gas tank it took 27.8 gallons to fill the purported 30 gallon capacity tank. Had I not been running on plane maybe the pickup would have been able to aspirate more fuel...?

/david

CAVU · Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:42 am Post subject:

It sounds like there are many different types of fuel pick-ups used in the various models. On the second page of my photo album are pix of the fuel pick-ups that were in my 2002 cruiser. I had to change to new tanks due to one tank cracking. The new tanks came with fuel pick-ups installed and I didn't remove them to check the geometry. I have never come close to using all the fuel in a tank. It would probably be a good idea to do this just so you know the useful capacity of the tanks.

jennykatz · Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:55 am Post subject: fuel pickup

There were no screens on my pickup tubes the one's I put in or the one's I replaced .The anti siphon valves are on top the part you skrew into the alum tank they get gunked up in a salt water environment best to replace the whole pickup with ones that do not have these valves .

SGIDave · Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:17 pm Post subject:

The mechanic that repaired the stb tank did not find an anti-siphon valve on that side. I ask about installing one and, in his opinion, he didn't feel they were worth the potential trouble. In my unlearned opinion, there did not appear to be an anti-siphon valve on the port tank when I pulled it.

/david

Chris Bulovsky · Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:43 pm Post subject:

I just had that happen! I ran out of gas in one tank then the engine sputters a bit I put it in neutral then walk back to the selector switch and turn on the other tank. Well that's when my bulb would fill with air and not fuel. The only reasonable explanation is that is that I was drawing air between the fuel tank and the bulb.

The fuel lines the were in poor condition. I just replaced them. I have not tried it yet but plan on it in the AM. My plan B is a 2 1/2 gal. tank independent of the big tanks I can plug in to nurse it home. Kinda fowls an outing stuff goes wrong.

Angry

Chris Bulovsky

Will-C · Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:03 am Post subject: Fuel Pick Up - LONG story

Hi.
After reading about this affiction; I wondered do you have to pull the fuel tanks on a Venture to get the fuel pickups out? I just wondered having an 08 Venture it seems like I would want to cut the pick ups on a 45 degree angle and get rid of the anti siphon valves if they are present. Second question is about removing the tanks. Are the two screws in each of the two angles welded to the bottom of the fuel tanks on the front and the side of the tanks you can see are they the only thing that holds the tanks in place or are they sort of glued down? Thanks in advance.
D.D.

jennykatz · Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:30 am Post subject: fuel tanks

On the 06 Venture there are 2 sets of skrews 2in front looking down and 2 skrews looking towards the bilge pump take all 4 skrews out and slide the tanks forward do one at a time Dave you might have the antisiphon valves or maybe not just slide it forward unskrew the pickups and check for the 45angle at the bottom of the pickup The antisiphon valve is built into the alum part you skrew into the tank which also hold the plastic fuel pickup. I just went to the Yami dealer and asked for fuel pickups without the valves (outboard eng) Good Luck run the boat first get as much fuel out as possible
Or if your not having problems leave it alone and fuel up at 1/3 full I would not have messed with it unless I was having problems

SGIDave · Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:47 am Post subject:

When I pulled my gas tank it was (nearly) empty which helped from a weight standpoint. You remove the 4 screws in the visible brackets as Jim said. You can leave the fuel fill and vent hoses attached and swing the tank out easily. The fuel pickup on my boat was rigid enough that the tanks had to be swung out to pull the pickup from the tank.

It's a fun little project Laughing

/david

lloyds · Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:57 am Post subject:

I have had a similar problem in the past, not with an outboard but an inboard diesel. I pulled the brass pickup tube out a couple times to clean the gunk out of the anti-siphon ball and while doing it crimped the tube. So I changed the brass out for a piece of hydraulic hose off of a trim tab. And because it is bendy stuff I put a small piece of brazing rod alongside the tube and used heat shrink to hold it in place. That's where the problem started. Diesel softened the heat shrink, the heat shrink slid down the tube, and every time the fuel sloshed across the tank the heat shrink would close off where it was rubbing on the bottom of the tank, causing a vacuum. I had some really bad experiences because of the engine dying at the wrong moment. Like on the Greys Harbor bar, between two tugs in the portland harbor, off of la push in a storm. Pick up tubes are critical. You need the very best.

Papillon · Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:26 pm Post subject:

A lot of folks will be discussing fuel related problems in the future as a result of one thing.....ethanol . When ethanol is introduced to our gas tanks it is acting as a pretty good tank cleaner, causing the varnish that has formed on the sides of the tanks to become dislodged and small sheets of it can be sucked to the pick up opening and cause a clog preventing the fuel from flowing from the tank up the pickup. If you have screens on the ends or anti-siphon ball berings in the pickup elbow at the top of the tank these can get clogged as well.

Since most people use water septarator fuel filters and the new four stroke engines all have an additional inline filter I feel it is wise to make sure that the pickup in unrestrictive in allowing the fuel to flow to these additional filters which are located were we as owners can reach them for service.

Therefore I have made it a point to remove the screens and antisipon ball berings from my pickups.