How safe are anchor swivels

[hardee]

**** BRINGING BACK AN OLD (2009) THREAD *****

Two questions.
1. Are folks using swivels now, or is it still a split group? And if so, what kind and what results, OR IF NOT, how is that going? Is there much issue with twisting?

2. The last post mentions marking the chain. I have 70 feet of chain and I am looking for good ideas on marking it. Paint, I'm OK with, anyone have a particular type that stays and shows up easily?

Harvey
SleepyC

[Not For Hire]

Mantus, an American anchor company, now makes swivels. The best I have sern. Mind you I don't use a swivel nor own a Mantus so just FYI.

[Marco Flamingo]

I've never used one and would not. I've never seen the need or even the benefit. How can the boat spin around on the rode enough to bind up the chain? Under what circumstances does an anchor spin around when on the bottom? I just don't see the need. If there ever was a problem, drop and retrieve the anchor in 500' of water and you're good for another year.

Second reason is my experience with failures on other swivels. Camera equipment and saxophones. Those are little swivels, but the same principal. They have some kind of a socket that can't be inspected. A wear point. Swivel failures are usually catastrophic, meaning that one minute it looks okay and the next it has parted. With the anchor swivel, you can add sand as an abrasive.

Given that the only benefit is that they look cool, I'll pass.

Mark

[localboy]

I do know this:
We had one and the rode never twisted
I took it off and the rode is now twisted

[Robert H. Wilkinson]

[Will-C]

I would doubt a C-Dory with a quality swivel would have a problem pulling apart a swivel. If you don't want to use a swivel that's cool. I would not lose any sleep either way. If things get twisted enough rode can bunch as your letting out rode using your windless that will require some undoing while in the process of dropping the hook. No biggie you have to go up there anyway to tie off the rode. Having a remote control for your windless would be nice so you could straighten any defugelties with out have to return to the helm to get to the windless control. Not bad if you have your baby momma along as she can follow your directions. For single handlers more of a pain. No matter what product you speak of; someone somewhere will have had a problem with it.
D.D.

[Hunkydory]

For the 1st nine seasons with our CD22, I pulled the anchor & chain by hand & didn't feel any need for a swivel & then in 2012 added a Lewmar 700H windless. With most comments I've read, saying a swivel accomplishes very little & if anything adds a weaker link in the rode & very little room between the end of the anchor shank & gypsy in my new set up, I opted to do without a swivel. Now, another 4 season have past in which the new windless has been put to very good use. I can now say, no matter how fast or slow, the anchor was brought up, there have been twist in the 50 foot of chain the majority of the time, causing a racket as it passed through the gypsy, that I'm sure is causing accelerated wear on it. For us, getting the twist out involved dropping the anchor & chain in water depth deep enough that the anchor could rotate the twist out. For me, eliminating this process or the extra grinding on the windless is well worth the slight to me risk of adding a swivel, so this winter, I did. I believe with it in place my sleeping at anchor will be fine, just like years past, but if it doesn't eliminate the twist in the chain & the swivel cool looks most certainly not a factor, I'll be removing it.

I checked out the Mantus swivel & like it better than this http://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?path=-1%7C2259973%7C2260017%7C2260034&id=655561 Suncor Swivel, I purchased from Defender. The price is the same & if the Suncor Swivel helps in the areas I described, then I'll probably purchase the Mantus.

Jay

[hardee]

The Mantus is a new one to me, so after looking it up, reading and watching the info on their site, I’m passing that along.

Here is the link to the Mantus swivel. It does look pretty good. The Mantus is made of 316 Stainless Steel. The S-1 is $65 which fits the ¼ HT G-4 chain that is pretty common on the C-Dory 22’s.

http://www.mantusanchors.com/mantus-swivel/




Specs for the S-1, for ¼ to 5/16 chain. Working load 2,200 pounds, Breaking load is 11,000 pounds.
$65.00



The Suncor’s are made from 17-4PH Stainless Steel. The Defender site says that they have “ball bearings”. I called Suncor and they were absolutely adamant that they had not had ball bearings in the device for several years. OK, but they would not supply me with an engineering drawing that showed internal pin dimensions. The person I talked to said the breaking strength said plenty about their construction.

Suncor Stainless Steel Universal Anchor Swivel, which has an additional piece to allow swivel and rotation on a different axis. Breaking load 8,500 pounds.
http://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?path=-1|2259973|2260017|2260034&id=655621
$83.99





Suncor Stainless Steel 360 Degree Anchor Swivel
Shorter, still with 8,500 pounds breaking load.
http://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?path=-1%7C2259973%7C2260017%7C2260034&id=655561
$65.99




I am still +/- on whether I want a swivel or not. Jay’s comment about the windlass grinding is not the first I have heard of that. I agree that it doesn’t seem like there should be all that twisting, but in some cases at least, there is, and for single handing, I am trying to avoid going up on the fore deck as much as possible, especially since the windlass controls are at the helm.

Harvey
SleepyC

[SeaSpray]

Well I started this tread and after reading that article in 2009, and I removed the swivel I was using. I had continuos problems with the line twisting and getting stuck when dropping the anchor. I do have a windlass.

So I went back to using the swivel and have no problems with twist. I also feel it is unlikely that the swivel would ever see loads that could cause failure from the normal anchoring I am likely to do.

[hardee]

After all the reading I have been doing on swivel vs no swivel, I think I am coming to a couple of conclusions. I think the stainless ones are less likely to bind up, but also, either stainless or other, there are hidden parts that we can't see from the outside. In stainless, if there is a corrosion problem, it will most likely come from the inside and it is very likely that the first indication of failure could be the sound of the boat rubbing on a rocky lee shore at 0200. Not where we want to be when we wake up.

I agree, that the C-Dory may not load the swivel to breaking weights, but if there is some metal failure due to the corrosion it may go before those limits are reached. If possible, I would try to go to an over-sized swivel if I am going to use it.

I am thinking that using an over-sized swivel and inspecting it frequently must be part of the protocol. The other component would be to replace the swivel frequently. That could be based on the number of uses, or the number of months of use. I guess those numbers would have to be decided by the user.

Harvey
SleepyC

[NewMoon]

I and my cruising buddy both had bad experiences with Kong swivels 15-20 years ago - they bent, and would have come apart had we not noticed and removed them.

When I switched from a Bruce to a Rocna a few years ago, I started having rope and chain twist problems, apparently caused by the anchor twisting as it was lowered or raised or both. By the time the chain reached the windlass on retrieval, sometimes it was twisted enough that I had to lean over the bow pulpit and untwist by hand before the chain would run through the windlass. Major PITA. This is the only thing I don't LOVE about the Rocna. Made me wonder if the Rocna was welded just a tiny bit crooked?? Called Rocna, sent them a bunch of pictures, and they thought it looked fine.

So I started researching swivels again. Wound up with the Suncor Universal pictured above. It is far better designed and constructed than the Kongs. It has eliminated most of the twist problem, and seems to be in good shape after two summers in SE AK. I think it would be plenty strong for a CD22, at least for some number of uses - I inspect every day. Still makes me nervous, however. Maybe I'll try a Mantus.

[Marco Flamingo]

It appears that I was just lucky. I could see where three-strand rode might have a tendency to "follow the twist," and maybe more under tension than when not, i.e., more one direction than the other. But I used three-strand. Even if I didn't notice a twist when retrieved, it seems like it would have shown up in the rode when laying in the anchor locker.

One of the things that I commonly did was to get the anchor up off of the bottom and then drift or power at idle for a few minutes. That almost always got rid of the mud/seaweed. Maybe my anchor was spinning around during this maneuver.

Mark

[hardee]

[Sea Wolf]

Harvey-

1. Your Quick windlass should probably have a magnet and a coil pick up built into it for a counter if it's similar to my Quick Aires 500.

2. Using an oversize swivel is an obvious solution until you look at them closely and find that the pins on the oversize are too big and won't fit through the inner open space on a 1/4" link of chain.

You might be able to work up to a larger opening using a shackle or two of graduating open tolerances.

Joe.

[Phil Barnes]

I have a Rocna and it spins on retrieval with the Lewmar V 700. I think any anchor with a large blade or "wings" is likely to spin on a fast retrieve. The V700 is one speed and it is pretty quick. I try and stop periodically on the way up to let things unwind if need be. And stop again to do the same before the chain comes into the windlass.

I have quailty Crosby G 209 Shackles with the red pins (U.S.A.). Their working load is 1,000 lbs. Maximum load is 2x the working load which gets us to 2,000 lbs. Crosby lists maximum strength load at 6 x working load or 6,000 lbs. These may be the weak link in my system in a straight line pull.

I use a swivel rated at 8500 lbs and connect to the anchor with several links of chain and a shackle between the anchor and the swivel to minimize side load.

For me, the worry is mechanical wear and failure of the swivel internally. I will be inspecting routinely and replacing periodically. At $65 per swivel and the cost of the boat if the swivel were to let go at a bad time, replacement of the swivel every few years seems like a pretty good deal if I continue to use one.

A good and helpful discussion.