boarding ladder saved a life

[Wefings]

Bob's safety at sea work [educating] is as good as it gets . He did his great presentation at our last gathering and it was valuable , professional and a great education . In an emergency your instincts have to be tuned in but your knowledge must be intuitive as well , hence the training and equipment. You cant get enough.
Marc

[Sea Wolf]

One comment I can add is that a ladder or boarding device can be aboard but impossible to use if a single person on board goes overboard and that device is not rigged, but instead under the gunnel, transom, or in the v-berth.

For those alone on board, a life saving system must be accessible one to that person when overboard, and not be dependent on someone aboard to employ.

So if you fish or boat alone, your system must be accessible from the water, independently available to you and not dependent on someone to deploy, like many of the gunnel mounted ladders.

Mount it permanently, with an easily reachable rope to drop it down, and be sure it has plenty of underwater reach/enough rungs. Many factory supplied/OEM ladders are too short, expecially for older, heavier, or exhausted and hypothermic persons.

Considering this difficult situation, a life vest and a waterproof handheld VHF radio would be invaluable.

Joe.

[El and Bill]

Been reading a book, Deep Survival, that bears on the emergency and life-saving discussion on this thread. The author, Laurence Gonzales, has made a lifetime study of the 'traits' that enable some to survive a life-threatening situation and others not. Fascinating.

In my earlier life, I was a boatman for over ten years, during summers - running Grand Canyon and most of the other major rapid-strewn rivers of the SW. Also lead adult education trips, studying Geology and natural history, all over the world, and mostly in the back blocks where geology is best seen and studied. Some of the trips had hazardous situations, at sea, on rivers, or four-wheel drive in outback environments. We would usually meet for a a night a week, for class discussion, for a few months prior to the river or overseas trips. During those sessions, I would try to assess the participants in terms of who would 'be there' to help out in tight spots. I slowly learned through years that the macho males were usually the first to be in a huddle sucking their thumbs when the chips were down - and it was often a woman (often from a farm or rural background) who would be reliable to count on for an assist.

The Deep Survival book suggests the same - and goes into the psychologiclal steps of deterioration for someone lost in the woods or surviving a sinking - and the traits (often developed through a life philosophy or prior experience) possessed by the survivors. It is not always as it might seem - for instance, who is more liable to survive being lost in the deep woods, a 5-year old or a 15-year old? An experienced river guide or a less-seasoned rafter who has to make a decision on whether to run a flooding river or not - who makes the right choices? A raft flips in a cold rapid-strewn river - who survives? The experienced guide or an Army Ranger?

When I was working search and rescue (in the ol' days) it was fascinating to see who made the right choices when their car broke down on a lonely desert road in Nevada. I heartily recommend this book to those of you who travel in the back blocks by boat, foot, or car - or whose job entails high risk.

[captd]

The suspender type ie: Mustang is a class three life jacket. It is not required to be worn and counts as your proper inventory.

Last summer here in Montana, I was checked out by the Game Warden. I showed him my Mustangs and he insisted they must be worn to be counted. I informed him that I disagreed with his assessment. He suggested he would give me a ticket if I was not wearing them next time. When I got home I e-mailed fish and game and told them their game wardens were mistaken about the class three life jackets. Their return email confirmed that I was right and said they would advise all their people they do not have to be worn.

I do believe the bib type inflatable has to be worn to count in inventory.
captd

[rogerbum]

If a Type V device is used to count toward requirements, it must be worn. Most of the Mustang inflatable pfds that I have looked at are listed at Type V. Here's a cut and paste from a Mustang pfd manual for two of their models. I added the bold face.

Owner’s Manual
MD3003 Inflatable PFD
Manual Inflation Model
USCG Approved Type V,
Approved Only When Worn,
Special Use Device
MD3031 Inflatable PFD
Manual with Automatic Backup Inflation Model
USCG Approved Type V,
Approved Only When Worn,
Special Use Device

Also from Mustang's web site:

Inflatable PFDs
Inflatable PFDs can be seen as the new generation of lifejackets. It must be worn to qualify as a PFD. These devices come in automatic or manual inflating models. Manual models are inflated by pulling a tab. They can also be blown up with an included tube if for some reason the tab doesn't operate properly. Automatic models are inflated via a C02 cartridge. Inflation is generally triggered by a dissolving bobbin when it is immersed in water. They also can be activated manually by pulling the tab. Inflatables are less bulky than inherently buoyant PFDs because they are only inflated when an individual is in the water. A version with integrated sailing harness is also available.

[Yellowstone]

Glenn's comments about trying to get aboard using the swim step hits the nail on the head for the solo boater. He and Joe made an important point about fitness or lack thereof. Also, trying it out in a safe environment. We can disregard how any solo boater finds him or her self in the drink - leave that to one's imagination. How many of us actually would do what Glenn did, viz. go through a drill?

And even a drill may not prepare you for the real thing, but it did give Glenn the info he needed - to get some grab rails installed in strategic places and a fighting chance to get aboard.

Recall the difference between a drill and the real thing when I joined the Marine Corps. We trained on land to crawl down cargo nets to the ground. But when we landed on Inchon, it was down the nets into landing boats heaving and slaming into the troop ship. Had the pleasure of being ordered along with several others to go down the nets first to pull the bottoms away from the hull to help keep the troops from getting feet and legs mangled as they descended. Now when you are 18 and agile, it was an adventure of sorts, but when I got my feet safely passed the pinch zone, I decided to jump to the deck. Can still remember what the sting felt like in the ankles upon impact.

Glenn's candidness reminds us that few are physically capable of climbing up the swim step into the well. I know I couldn't without something to grab with both hands.

A quick assessment of the Far West II. suggests without a boarding ladder in place, crawling into the well would be most difficult. Now if your Dory has trim tabs, that is a place to put your feet. Weighted, they may drop a few inches, but they will support your weight. Next, where to grab on something. The edge of the well is difficult - but if you have the 1999 and previous models, the cleat is properly located as a grab point. Long arms will help. Also, the steering arm may give you something to grab.

Unfortunately, the new owners screwed up royally when they reconfigured the location of the rear cleats to run parallel with the hull. They are going to purgatory for that decision, not to mention the Mickey Mouse covers and small entrance into the lazarettes.

Excuse my rants. John

[El and Bill]

A slight add-on to Yellowstone's comments and allusion - the CG has told us that most fatal overboards are men, with their pant's zippers down.

[DaveS]

[Yellowstone]

Gee, Bill. All this time I thought the guys had their zippers down so they could take off their pants to swim better. Are you and El going to leave your tropical paradise at Lake Powell and mosey north? (We had wet snow on the ground yesterday) Edna and I head to Bridge Bay for a minimum of a month on the 15th, and Jay and Jolee are coming in on the 20th. Still thinking about Canada? Understand one has to have passports to cross the border. John

[thataway]

I'll have to check out the book that Bill refers to--sounds very good. I have always felt that "situational awareness" is key--not only in survival, but in preventing situations which become survival from just a simple mistake or mis-understanding. Boating involves a high degree of situational awareness to prevent problems--or to react immediately and instinstively to an emergency.

Both training drills, and wirtten plans are important--in that they force you to think through what will happen, and how any problems can be rectified. There is no question that some people are instinctively more suited to survive. Part may be training and background, but part is inherient.

We are perticularly aware of "boarding" our 25, as we travel. All be it different from the ground, than with wet clothes and in 40 degree water. But that big step up to the ladder, and then looking for a hand hold is an eye opener. We also have the railings around the cockpit in the 25, which are a better hand hold, and in our boat we have put in SS tubing in the splash well to cary either an ice chest or the generator--these also make reasonabel hand holds, comming aboard.

Great discussion!

[Hunkydory]

Bob, I think you would not only find "Deep Survival" enjoyable but fasinating. Jo-Lee and I read it through the local Library several years ago. Thought it was so good we bought our own copy and read and plan to re read it every year. One of the more interesting points brought out by the author was the "what were they thinking" when a person who absolutely knows better puts themselves into a extreme life threating situation through either the thrill or just "gloriousness" (my own discription) of the moment. Have been there many times in my life and only luck or "the right stuff" got me through the consequences of that step to far. Hopefully by having read and reread this book and knowing just why myself and others find ourselves prone to this we will be more apt to think ahead instead of someone else asking about us "what were they thinking".

I have recommended reading this book here in the past.

Jay

[captd]

[captd]

I posted pictures in my album of the class III life jackets. Someone could move them to this thread if you would.
captd

[rogerbum]

Yes - but don't confuse "have a Type III performance rating" with actually being classified as Type III. As long as it says Type III on the label (which yours do), your fine. However, not all of the mustang suspender pfds are labeled as Type III. Many are labeled as Type V. In particular, the hydrostatic activated ones are Type V.

My West Marine offshore inflatables are labeled as Type V - UNLESS I disarm the hydrostatic inflation and make them manually inflatable only and I suspect the same is true of many hydrostatically activated inflatables (like the Mustang ones I linked to above). My mustang manually inflatable (model MD3085) is labeled as Type III when it's used on a recreation vessel but Type V if used on an uninspected commercial vessel. So not all suspender type inflating vests are type III, people really have to read the label.

What I find to be strange is that the hydrostatic jackets are type V and must be worn where as the manually activated ones are type III and need not be worn. In the incident described that started this thread, a manually operated inflatable wouldn't have helped. Also, it's not that uncommon for people to bang their head when the fall from a boat so I much prefer the hydrostatic inflatables. I want the jacket to keep me afloat even if I get knocked out.


Here's the images of yours

[Yellowstone]

Thanks to Rogerbum, I have learned some technicalities about PFDs which I didn't know. As to his musing about why a certain type PFD is OK but not another,( the one covering more safety conditions is not)one has to delve into the madness that has become institutionalized in our governments.

Recently, the U.S. Forest Service has authorized the public to use bear proof coolers for camping use. No more hauling it up the bear pole. But to date the NPS has not signed off. Imagine getting cited for leaving a bear proof cooler on the ground in Yellowstone Park.

The topic which I started has meandered a bit,(I'm exhibit A) but everything added has enlightened me to no end. Water safety is not a particularly sexy topic, but even case hardened sea faring persons need to take inventory on occasion. As the year's slide by, I will not be able to take the risks on water that I did when much younger. And I'm sure my judgment hasn't improved, either.

Last fall while boating alone, I fell into the water (without a PFD on) while trying to step from my 20' Lund onto a low dock. The boat moved away as I was stepping, and I didn't get enough weight on the foot hitting the dock to compensate, and gravity took over. Had done this manuever hundreds of times without incident. The only saving grace was that I was the only one around the area, so my embarrassment was not shared initially.

I'm quite sure many of the C-Brats could come up with their own embarrassing moments on the water. One philosopher has said that public confessions may be good for the soul, but they are awfully hard on one's reputation. So be careful.

Talk about taking risks on water, authors on Joshua Slocum and the ledgendary Spray claim that he couldn't swim a stroke. John