Chartplotter Cartography - Comments....

Casey

I'll begin the discussion with some comments about RayMarine, (actually C-Map) cartography....and hope tht others join-in with their evaluation(s) of various other products.

When we bought "Naknek," I studied the market, and opted for the Raymarine hsb2 interconnected system (RL70CRC). Previously, we had used a Garmin GPS III+ handheld for several years on another boat, and loved the performance, realiability, and ability to download pretty decent cartography via Garmin's MapSource CD.

When I chose the Raymarine system I was looking for genuine chartplotter capability that linked the radar, sounder, autopilot, etc. As for cartography, I chose the C-Map (the only other choice as I recall was Navionics). Although I've always liked Garmin products; BlueChart cartography simply wasn't an option on the Raymarine system.

After two years, and 170 hours, I am satisfied with the Raymarine system, but find myself wishing I could somehow access the Garmin BlueChart data. C-Map is "ok," but nothing spectacular and I honestly think BlueChart is better both in terms of quality and quantity of data. Sandy has a Garmin PDA (iQue 3600) that will read BlueChart data, so I sometimes use both the BlueChart and C-Map for head-to-head comparison. We bought the AK chips (C-Map and BlueChart) prior to our recent Inside Passage trip, and honestly think BlueChart IS better than C-Map (although is pains me to say that....). The BlueChart data is simply spectacular; C-Map is very workable, but (I think) falls somewhat short. Regrettably, while the PDA is a very good GPS, but is not a full featured chartplotter.

"Background" mapping. On the Garmin, you have a pretty decent "background map" that is part of the GPS's firmware. In addition, you can download surprisingly useful cartography (county-by-county for anywhere in whole country) from the Garmin MapSource CD. On Raymarine, I'm often looking at a blank (yellow) screen unless I've bought one of the pricey little C-Map chips for a particular area. From what I've seen there isn't any kind of decent background map on the Raymarine; and Certainly nothing like Garmin or MapSource. Dang.

If you boat in one or two particular areas; buying the chips (whatever brand...) isn't that big of a deal. If you do a lot of long-range boating, you could have small fortune tied-up in chart chips! (I suspect that Bill and El have spent a tidy sum for the area's They've covered!)

If anyone has any comments/suggestions - I'm all ears! Going out to buy a Garmin chartplotter (since I already spent the IRA on the Raymarine stuff...) just isn't an option!

I must say, though, that I thought buying Sandy the iQue 3600 for our anniversary last year was a stroke of Genius! The only glitch was that SHE ACTUALLY LOVES USING IT (which wasn't exactly in MY plan). Hmmm ... I wonder how she'd like a Garmin Chartplotter - for Christmas?!?

I would be very interested to hear other folks thoughts and comparison(s).

Casey
C-Dory "Naknek" (on the hard in Lake Montezuma, AZ) but awaiting the next Adventure!!

Da Nag · Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 12:11 pm Post subject:

Hey Casey,

I couldn't agree with you more - I'm in the same situation.

I came from a Garmin background, and after using the RayMarine system for a while, there are many things I like better about the Garmins. I think I'm beyond the point of it just being a familiarity preference; certain actions are just easier and more intuitive on the Garmin, and like you, I prefer the BlueCharts over C-Map data.

My basic rule of thumb when asked about marine electronics - if you want integrated, go Raymarine. If not, get a Garmin chartplotter/sounder, and whatever RADAR you may want. For me, the benefits of the integrated Raymarine system outweight the slightly inferior chartplotter and C-Map data, but I sure wish I didn't have to compromise.

My solution - I had BlueChart on my last Garmin in Da Nag 19, and I burned my own chips using the unlock codes. In doing so, Garmin provides you with the ability to unlock one additional unit for each BlueChart you buy. When I sold Da Nag 19, I made it clear to the new owner that the BlueChart licenses were not going with the unit - just the chip.

Then, after getting Da Nag 22, I picked up Garmin's latest small color marine unit - the Garmin 76C. I used my additional unlock codes on it, so I've got BlueChart data from Mexico to Canada. Also, unlike the "pure" Garmin marine units, it's a great GPS for use in a car; you can get a package that includes full access to all street info in the US, and the unit has auto-routing and driving direction capability built in. It has a ton of memory; I can load all of my BlueCharts on it, along with street information between Central CA and Northern WA.

Using the bean bag mount, it moves between the truck and boat easily, plus it gives me some redundancy on the boat should there be a problem with the Raymarine. The internal antenna works fine through the cabin roof. I keep its small display zoomed way out for reference (usually 12-24 miles), and use the Raymarine for the up close navigation.

Works great for me...it ain't cheap, but I get good alternative use out of it in the car, and it compliments the Raymarine system nicely.

flagold · Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:18 pm Post subject:

I agree there's no perfect solution and I compromised on larger integrated displays to get a unit with a US basemap that would show adequate detail no matter where I was (with no chart chip). The most detailed of any was a Humminbird 97, which takes the whole US to a 4 mile level which was 8 times better than any of the rest unless you buy chart chips (in other words, from the side to side of the screen = 4 miles, whereas most are 32 mile basemaps or even 64 so detail leaves a lot to be desired unless you buy chips). As far as the chips go, it uses Navionics & Hotmaps. For the home area I bought a combo NC to St. Marks Fl chip and the Inland Lakes. The large chart does still show the individual bouy numbers out here in my home channel, on the basemap you lose the bouys and numbers, retain the channel in detail. The home waters I've boated and captained almost 40 years so have hit everything by now and know where it is anyway without going down to an inch scale.

Quality: I looked long at this, swallowed hard, and bought it. Upon installing it (easy), I was told to expect it to fail in 3 mos by concerned captain friends who couldn't understand why a man who had owned Garmin, Raymarine, and Raytheon units would put one of these in a new boat. Luckilly I was able to answer correctly who the president was and what day it was so didn't end up in the rest home and so far, it has operated without fail from Florida to Washington without a hitch on a boat towed down some extremely rough terrain.

So, the 97 is what solved the chart problem for me when I never know where I'll be with the boat on short notice -- no matter where, I always have a basemap to work from and can pick up a local chart and work from there. I may add an integrated unit later (radar/chart/) but for now, and for $700 simply couldn't ignore this little unit and it's usefullness in what I'm doing (gold dredging).

The color fishfinder (which is what I actually use the most for interpolating bottom hardness and material drop zones) is excellent.

http://www.humminbird.com/products.asp?ID=381

I don't own stock in Humminbird, don't necessarilly love or hate their products, but simpy give credit to something that gave me a cost effective solution for a nationwide ready chartplotter without cards.

This is how I have my C-Dory loaded for an exploratory gold-dredging trip to Georgia, South Carolina, and North Carolina:

that is a 3 inch Proline gold dredge (floats, frame, sluicebox, flarejet) in the bunk.

(the engine for the dredge, tools, and (yellow box) parts and fasteners for the dredge and other equipment)

it floats - even at 4500 lbs -- gas, dredge, scuba equipment, full provisions, full water, metal detectors, and much more.

you can get an idea of the practical size of the 97 Matrix display from this shot on the Weeki Wachee, FL

I usually have the bottom feature on full screen when going up the river, there are a number of ways to display info with it (split screens/3D/overview/etc.)

I intalled it so the helmsman would have a clear view from either center or helm position. Those strips you see are velcro (the hook part of the strip) that I hang terrycloth towels on for curtains. Terrycloth sticks to velcro like velcro -- so full curtains can be had for under $20 -- store them in a bag.

GO AWAY IVAN!

Matt Mattson
http://www.treasuresites.com

Sawdust · Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:36 pm Post subject:

Very interesting and informative posts. And Matt, sure hope Ivan doesn't ruin your entire week...

Re charts. We all have favorites, and I have skipped back and forth (no joke!!) between most of the major brands. Just went from Garmin to Raytheon -- two different RayNav systems. The present system, C80, works great for me -- and I like these charts as well as the Garmin. Note, I didn't say better! The digital depth sounder on the Raytheon is superb. All of the present units are light years ahead of equipment made just a few years back. I don't travel around the country, so the one chip that I use covers my area very well -- and if I decide to go visit 2nd Byte in AK I'll just have to spend more bucks and get another chip or two. Because of the perpetual fog we live in here in Puget Sound, the MARPA function of the Raytheon systems makes the difference for me.

May change boats again, but the C80 stays.

Dusty

flagold · Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 6:46 pm Post subject:

Thanks Dusty -- I'm holding my breath that this one will miss (finally one we don't get!).

Forgot to mention one of the great things to carry is a laptop with DeLorme Topo USA if you're a traveling man (or woman). It gives a lot of information on old ferry sites, etc., that make a routine cruise a really interesting cruise and with the 3D feature you can actually boat the water before you get there and know what to expect feature wise. In going all over the USA, it has certainly proven its worth to me, many times.

"hanging a barge" beaching method -- the C-Dory way

Matt Mattson
http://www.treasuresites.com

Wanderer · Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:40 pm Post subject:

Casey,

I think I have the same system you described on my sailboat. I do know it is the Raymarine integrated system and that it uses C Map NT cards. It is nice to have all the information at the helm and echoed at the chart table. However, I found that I seldom used the cartography. Instead, I use a laptop computer running The Capn by Nautical Technologies. The 15 inch laptop is installed in a dark box just in front of the helm and is further protected by an extended dodger. In really nasty weather, it lives at the chart table below. In fact, when running some passes in the Bahamas I had independent laptops and GPS systems running in both places with paper charts at hand. Yes, I’m a belt and suspenders type. In this case, belt and belt type.

Tomorrow, we take delivery of a new C-Dory 22 Cruiser. In addition to a Chart Kit, I will take a laptop with a GPS wired to it and a small inverter to power the computer. For the maiden voyage, I’ll probably put a bungee around it on the table. If I decide to provide for a more permanent installation, I have in mind a swing out arm, leaving the computer near the hatch into the V-berth where it will be shaded and protected; yet, can be seen at the helm.

I’d like to hear your thoughts and anyone else’s on such an arrangement.

George

Billy · Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 1:22 am Post subject: Chartplotter/Cartography

Wow, You guys are all lights years ahead of me in electronics and I thought I had it made! I live in Alaska and I have an Apelco radar, Garmin 240 depth sounder and a Garmin 182 Chart plotter with a local blue chip. None are linked. The radar, though a little difficult to interpret at first, tells me what I need to know regarding other boats although I rarely use it. The Garmin 240 is very basic but works well enough that I won't replace it anytime soon unless I hit the lottery but the question was chartplotters and I couldn't be happier than I am with what I've got. That thing has put me into some small coves in pitch blackness and heavy weather when I really needed accuracy and a place to go, without error. I've awoken in the morning to find myself exactly where the electronics told me I was, and I'm talking plus or minus feet, not yards. Having 3 different screens means mentally combining the information they each provide with what I see on my charts and out the windows, but that is half the fun for me. A color screen might be sexy some day, but I'm not sure it would be any better for my purposes. Of course none of this takes into account other folks' needs like autopilot and such. Also some would say that my helm is somewhat cluttered with screens but two out of the three came with the boat and serve me well as is, not justifying the $ to change over to an all in one unit yet. If I were buying a boat bare of electronics it might make more sense for me but not so far. Hooking up a laptop? Way beyond me but sounds cool.

Casey · Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:02 am Post subject:

George,

I would be curious to know where you are located. (I seem to remember something about Cutter Marine - which suggests somewhere along the Mid-Atlantic). I am doing "army stuff" near Ft. Meade (MD) until 9/24, is there any chance we might connect and compare notes.

You mentioned using a laptop on an "arm." I know there is atleast one C-Dory user who has a similar setup, but was unable to locate the picture(s). I've used an old version of CAPN for several years (and like it...) but generally used it for trip planning before getting our C-Dory. On some trips out of Key West it was useful to take my own portable setup aboard larger boats when I was crewing, etc. (Sometimes useful when you're not a comfortable with whatever is onboard, and can fall back on the reliability of your own stuff.) ...yes, I know what you mean about belts and suspenders.

We find that the C-Dory is very good for longer cruising-type trips; which means being loaded, and a rather congested V-berth area. My own thinking is that nice as the laptop and nav programs are, having it on an "arm" may be a bit awkward (particularly in rough wx). I certainly travel with the laptop, but generally keep it on a shelf beneath the helm seat and just use it for email, etc.

Navigation electronics have come a long way in just the past few years, and have nearly overcome the older nav software (in my opinion). Rumors suggest that Garmin may be close to bringing out an integrated radar/chartplotter/sounder system to compete with Raymarine/Furuno. If so, my guess is that it will be a gang-buster of a product. Stay tuned.

My own thought is to explore the capabilities of Sandy's PDA (although it's not a plotter per se, at least it is a GPS and can access BlueCharts.) On the other hand, if Garmin comes out with a new line, their 2006C plotter should be available for a close-out price, and I might be tempted. Lordy, lordy, boat toys - where will it ever end??? (Answer: ...it doesn't End!)

Casey
C-Dory "Naknek"

TyBoo · Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:12 am Post subject:

Here you go, Casey. I think the pictures you're wanting to see are on page 2 of the Shearwater album. Neat setup.

And no, I haven't forgotten you! In fact, you are sitting on my desk in the very return mailer you enclosed with the stuff you sent me. Still the same address in AZ?

Wanderer · Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:58 pm Post subject:

Casey,

I'd love to get together while you're in the area. We live in Annapolis, MD. Give me a call at home 410 263-2349. May even be able to talk you into a ride in the rain.

Took delivery of boat today. Used the laptop on the cushion in the V-berth. It was a little too far away to see.

Tyboo,

I took a look at the photos you pointed us toward. Will try to get in touch with Shearwater to get his current thoughts on the setup shown.

George

Casey · Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:00 pm Post subject: Thanks Tyboo!

Hi Mike,

Thanks for finding pic's - I thought they might be useful.

Yea, same addrress. I'm curently in MD playing 'army. Will be home (this time) on 9/24. ...no rush Smile

casey

Island Ranger · Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:26 pm Post subject:

Is there any inexpensive way to view the Navionics charts on a home PC?

I've got the C-80 Raymarine system on Two Lucky Fish, but would love to have access to the charts during those times when I am not on board. It would be great to plan cruises, etc in the comfort of my living room. I just downloaded the new Raymarine software upgrade onto a flashcard, and will install it tomorrow. I also learned I can create a table of waypoints in Excel and upload them into the Raymarine GPS/Chart system. So now..is there a way to view the Gold Chart Chip at home?

Any recommendations?

Thanks,
Mac

SeaSpray · Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:08 am Post subject:

Hi Mac,
You are way ahead of me! I also have the C80 system. I thought the factory had to do software upgrades. Let me know how it goes.

Also, how do you load waypoints from your PC to the C80 system?

I have the radom and hope to install it soon. Do you have the autopilot and have you had any problems with it?

Thanks,
Steve

Island Ranger · Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 7:34 pm Post subject:

Hi Steve,

Good to hear from you again.

I loaded the new software while fishing today - even with lots of shakers and three great strikes - one almost in the boat - a large Blackmouth for sure! - but lost it right at the end. Oh well, tomorrow is supposed to be sunny again. Always a difficult choice - fish? cruise? golf? or chores.... sure do enjoy retirement in Whidbey!

It was easy to download. Following the instructions on the Raymarine web site (www.raymarine.com) - I loaded the software onto a flash card and it took ~ 10 minutes on board to complete. I did have to buy a flashcard (~$10) and a writer (~$15) for my notebook PC, but that's it. And now I can use the card to transfer other info - waypoints, etc.

You can get the C-series waypoint transfer utility from the Raymarine site as well. It's hidden under the customer service tab. I found it by clicking on "find answers" and the download is hidden in the 19th question.

I've had my share of hassles with the Raymarine electronics. First - the Autopilot malfunctioned (stlk error) on the way back from the Sequim cruise. It screwed up the GPS as well, so I had to turn it off at the breaker. Les / EQ was on holiday so I worked directly with Raymarine - they were great, but I couldn't fix it myself. Just when I was about to rip out the autopilot controller - it started working again and now seems fine....

The DSM 250 fathometer wigs out occasionally, but mostly I think it is the turbulence ( or algae) under the transducer. Again, every time I go to take it in - it starts working beautifully.

I have the same issue with the autopilot (porpoising) that you highlighted - and either ignore it, or trim the engine/tabs/speed to minimize it.

So far, the radar is delightful - and I have relied on it a bunch. And I don't know how I ever lived without GPS - it's great. The VHF (Ray 54) seems fine as well - I like the tri channel monitor option so I can catch the local fishing discussions while monitoring 16.

Now, I'd really like to do some cruise planning at home, so I am on the hunt for software for my PC that doesn't cost $200. I found one (Nobeltec- eChart planner) for $10 that utilizes NOAA planning charts - so I may give that a try.

Mac

SeaSpray · Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:35 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the info Mac!

It must be tough having to make those hard choices about what to do! Lucky for me I only have to choose what to do when I can get off work. Crying or Very sad

I have another 5 years before I can think about being free. Should have the boat all set up by then.

My DSM 250 also quits reading but usually when I change speeds or at higher speeds. It always seems to start up again.

I went through the auto pilot learning mode and made some adjustments this weekend and it seems to have stopped hunting back and forth, but it still does not seem to go to a waypoint like it should.

I have some TOPO software for my PC that I could probably use to generate waypoints and tracks with. If I can put them on a CF card then I should be able to upload to the C80. Let me know what you come up with.

Steve