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jennykatz
Joined: 15 Dec 2003 Posts: 1678 City/Region: naples
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2006
C-Dory Model: 23 Venture
Vessel Name: Little Treasurer
Photos: Jennykatz
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Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:14 am Post subject: battery ? |
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WE have been running a f-115 yamaha we have 2 batteries one a series 24 the other a series 27 ( 115 amp hours ) . WE have charged the batteries while running .The gps 498 says it goes from 13.8-14.4 volts when using the both feature on the battery switch (1,Both,2 battery switch)I don't have an isolater on this system just 2 batteries with switch.
When i started to run the refrigerator (tundra ) now the gps and yamaha gauges say 11.8-12.4 volts ? Just wondering why such a discrepancy in voltage.any thoughts on this matter
Also thinking about changing the series 24 to a series 27 same as the other to equal(115) the amp hrs out? _________________ retired 8/08 from UAL, still working pt tm
Duck c-22 cruiser sold 6/23/08
06 Venture Cruiser with merc115CT
00 cd16 cruiser honda 40 sold 3/12 |
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Wefings Dealer
Joined: 29 Nov 2005 Posts: 2086 City/Region: Panhandle
State or Province: FL
Photos: Cruise Ship #4
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Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:19 am Post subject: |
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Jim are both of these voltage readings with motor running,same switch position and same RPM ? Just the fridge is the variable ?
Marc _________________ Wefings Marine Website
Since 1909 |
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Sea Wolf
Joined: 01 Nov 2003 Posts: 8650 City/Region: Redding
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 1987
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sea Wolf
Photos: Sea Wolf
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Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:45 am Post subject: |
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JIM-
Once you turn that refrigerator on, the amperage draw from it will lower the apparent voltage available to other devices such as your GPS, and the voltage meter on your Yamaha motor gauge will go down, whether the motor is running or not.
The drop will be a lot less with the motor and alternator running than it will be once the motor's off, but, but the load of the refrigerator will pull down the voltage left for rest of the system simply because the refrigerator puts the batteries under a discharge load.
Refrigerators typically pull a fairly large amperage load, regardless of whether they are a compressor or other type.
Changing over the smaller battery from a group 24 to a group 27 will help some, but much the same will still happen, only to a slightly smaller degree because of the newer slightly larger capacity battery.
If the motor's off, the refrigerator will also run a bit longer before the voltage drops to the point you should shut it off or restart the engine to protect the battery from being overly discharged and shortening it's life expectancy with another 27.
So the switch of the one battery from a 24 to a 27 is a good idea, but I'd just wait until it naturally needed replacing, anyway, since the change will not be dramatic.
If you really need a lot of power to run the refrigerator for long periods without starting the engine (and being off shore power), consider going over to still larger batteries, like a pair of 31's or, better yet, four 6 volt golf cart batteries rigged into two banks of 12 volts (link two 6 volt batteries in series to get a 12 volt battery). This will give you quite a bit more total Amp-hours available for house use, including your refrigerator.
Joe. _________________ Sea Wolf, C-Brat #31
Lake Shasta, California
"Most of my money I spent on boats and women. The rest I squandered'. " -Annonymous |
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journey on
Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 3595 City/Region: Valley Centre
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: journey on
Photos: Journey On
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Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:51 am Post subject: |
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You know, I'm having a hard time having people taking a picture with a phone. Now, I'm trying to adjust getting a voltage reading from a GPS.
The higher voltage is what I'd expect from a set of batteries being charged. And the lower voltage is typical from batteries being used. What I don't understand is a range of voltage. A battery voltage should be constant, only changing gradually. They put out DC. I assume that you separate the batteries after you end charging.
12.4 is OK 11.8 is discharged and that's a no-no.
Boris
KE6QWS |
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jennykatz
Joined: 15 Dec 2003 Posts: 1678 City/Region: naples
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2006
C-Dory Model: 23 Venture
Vessel Name: Little Treasurer
Photos: Jennykatz
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Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:35 pm Post subject: batteries |
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Marc,Joe
Yes the eng is running from 1200rpm -4800rpm or WOT It does not matter
When we went out the battery switch was on both and it started out at 13.3 then within a few min. it went down to 12.4 then went to 11.8 We had a garmin fishfinder and garmin 498 gps plus the tundra refridge on.
We were out for about 2hours of running .We have been out for 3days about 2hours each day , so the batteries should be charged
Right now I'm charging them with a charger that came with the cape cruiser same as the cd-25.This week I will go down and check the acid level in each battery , and run the boat without the fridge on .I'll let you know how it turns out. |
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JamesTXSD
Joined: 01 Mar 2005 Posts: 7445 City/Region: from island boy to desert dweller
State or Province: AZ
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: "Wild Blue" (sold 9/14)
Photos: Wild Blue
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Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Jim,
Check that Guest charger. When we picked up Wild Blue, we were running the boat almost daily. The alternator on the motor kept the batteries topped off nicely. When I checked the batteries on shore power, they were low. It was then I discovered the charger wasn't working. I replaced it under warranty from Guest. The charger puts power back into the batteries slow (5 amps tops), so it can take a full day to top off the batteries.
C-Dory originally had a Grp 24 battery as our only house battery... I had ordered it with 2 Grp 27s. They just put a 27 in with the 24. I also discovered that the batteries were "months old" (one was 13 months old when installed) according to the #s from Interstate. Two new matched 27s are doing a MUCH better job these days.
When setting at anchor for a while, I use an automotive charger with the Honda generator (allows me to put more power back into the batteries faster than the onboard Guest).
Good luck with this.
Best wishes,
Jim |
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jennykatz
Joined: 15 Dec 2003 Posts: 1678 City/Region: naples
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2006
C-Dory Model: 23 Venture
Vessel Name: Little Treasurer
Photos: Jennykatz
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Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:16 pm Post subject: batteries |
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Jim are you coming down to fla again this winter The St. Johns would be nice to do .Mike needs to take out his cdory
I will know a littl;e bit more this week I will check the batteries and then maybe just buy that other series 27 and put it in . I really don't need battery problems Thanks for the suggestions |
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JamesTXSD
Joined: 01 Mar 2005 Posts: 7445 City/Region: from island boy to desert dweller
State or Province: AZ
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: "Wild Blue" (sold 9/14)
Photos: Wild Blue
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Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:33 pm Post subject: Re: batteries |
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jennykatz wrote: | Jim are you coming down to fla again this winter The St. Johns would be nice to do .Mike needs to take out his cdory
I will know a littl;e bit more this week I will check the batteries and then maybe just buy that other series 27 and put it in . I really don't need battery problems Thanks for the suggestions |
Hi Jim,
No plans to head back to Florida this season. Do I have to come back there to drag Mike out on his boat??? Sheesh, that sailing stuff has gotten to him, huh? I've heard of that happening to people. Next thing you know, he'll be talking about selling off everything and heading out over the horizon.
The St. Johns sounds like some interesting cruising. And the NY canal system... and the Trent-Severn... and the Tenn-Tom... and
If you plan to put 2 27s in series, be sure that the first one is in "like new" condition so it doesn't pull down the other.
Best wishes,
Jim |
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Sea Wolf
Joined: 01 Nov 2003 Posts: 8650 City/Region: Redding
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 1987
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sea Wolf
Photos: Sea Wolf
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Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:51 pm Post subject: Re: batteries |
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jennykatz wrote: | Marc,Joe
Yes the eng is running from 1200rpm -4800rpm or WOT It does not matter
When we went out the battery switch was on both and it started out at 13.3 then within a few min. it went down to 12.4 then went to 11.8 We had a garmin fishfinder and garmin 498 gps plus the tundra refridge on.
We were out for about 2hours of running .We have been out for 3days about 2hours each day , so the batteries should be charged
Right now I'm charging them with a charger that came with the cape cruiser same as the cd-25.This week I will go down and check the acid level in each battery , and run the boat without the fridge on .I'll let you know how it turns out. |
Jim-
Ir sounds to me like you're loosing the battery charge even when you're running the boat. If that's true, then either
1.) the alternator is not charging, or
2.) the refrigerator is using more power than the alternator can keep up with, or
3.) there's a short in one of the battery cells that's bleeding the power down from the other battery and entire system.
Your Yamaha 115 alternator puts out about 25 amps (may vary with the year), and something around 20 amps should be left after the computer and fuel injection sysem take their share.
The Tundra refrigerator (depending on the model) uses around 3 amps of power, so it's not out stripping your alternator production if the alternator is functioning normally.
I'd put in two new matched 27's and then see if their fate follows the pattern.
If you have a 115 Amp-hour group 27 battery, you should be able to pull 50 Amp-hours out of it before seriously needing recharging.
50 Amp-hours divided by 3 amps = 16-17 hours of run time (without any other battery drain), so somewhere something is neither not charging or there's a short circuit gremlin eating up your power (such as in a shorted battery).
My 2 Watts worth ! (Money's tight everywhere!)
Joe. |
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jennykatz
Joined: 15 Dec 2003 Posts: 1678 City/Region: naples
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2006
C-Dory Model: 23 Venture
Vessel Name: Little Treasurer
Photos: Jennykatz
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Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:31 am Post subject: batteries |
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Joe how do I check to see if alt is giving out 20amps? also where should i look for a short ?
and how do you find it (short) what , where and how?
I think after i check this out i will need a few of these Thanks
Are any more c-brats coming down to fla.for winter |
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Doryman
Joined: 03 Oct 2006 Posts: 3807 City/Region: Anacortes
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2006
C-Dory Model: 255 Tomcat
Vessel Name: Lori Ann
Photos: Lori Ann
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Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:21 am Post subject: Re: batteries |
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jennykatz wrote: | Are any more c-brats coming down to fla.for winter |
I've mentioned in other threads --don't know if you saw them -- that I will be in SW FL and the Keys in January. Will probably launch in the Naples area and then cruise south, so hopefully we can connect then.
Warren _________________ Doryman
M/V Lori Ann
TomCat 255, Hull #55, 150 Yamahas
Anacortes, WA
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Sea Wolf
Joined: 01 Nov 2003 Posts: 8650 City/Region: Redding
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 1987
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sea Wolf
Photos: Sea Wolf
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Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:04 am Post subject: Re: batteries |
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Joe how do I check to see if ilt is giving out 20amps?
You really need an ammeter for this, connected in series with the current flow out of and into the motor. The ammeter is best connected between each
battery post, one at a time, and the "+" cable coming to it from the battery switch. Test each battery separately with the motor running and also off. An automotive ammeter will tell you if current is flowing, how much, and which way (charging, discharging).
I also suspect the diagnostic program that Brent has could tell you if the alternator isn't working.
In a simpler vein, if you've got good batteries, you've done the test below and have no shorts, the refrigerator is off, and, after starting the motors, the batteries loose their charge, something's not charging them, so it must be the alternator is bad, or some connection is loose.
Always make sure your battery cables are tightly connected. Use nuts and a wrench and keep the posts, connections and cables clean. If you must use wing nuts, tighten them with a pair of pliers. Loose cables can keep electronic devices from working, or even cause damage to them!
also where should i look for a short ?
Start with the batteries. Charge the batteries independently and leave them sit w/o a load on them for a day or two with the battery cables detached. Check the voltage on each one every six hours or so. If either one of them drops voltage dramatically, it's either got one or more dead cells, or a internal short.
and how do you find it (short) what , where and how?
To check for an power robbing short in the wiring, turn every switch in the boat off and with the batteries removed. Then check the resistance in Ohms between the hot lead coming out of the battery and the ground cable for that battery. Do this for each battery hookup one at a time with the battery switch turned to that battery. Generally the meter ought to show "Open Load" or a LOT (hundreds or thousands) of Ohms resistance.
You can also do this with the batteries installed and a continuity light test probe, which lights up when current flows. Turn everything off as before, then flip the switch to one battery at a time. Put the continuity tester between the "+" battery post and the disconnected "+" cable. With everything off, no current should flow, and the light should not go on. If it does, you've got a short or some unit is turned on somewhere. Leave the light clipped to the post and the cable, and one by one, remove fuses and turn off circuit beakers until the light goes off and you find where the current is flowing. You can do the same with the digital meter. Set it on resistance, and watch the Ohms as you one by one disconnect the fuses and open the circuit breakers. When the meter goes from a few Ohms to "Open Load", you've found the circuit that's providing the path for the power to flow through.
I think after i check this out i will need a few of these
Thanks,
jennykatz
Are any more c-brats coming down to fla.for winter?
*********************************************************
Did you want lime with the beer? We've got an extra one or two left over from Tom, too!
Hope this helps!
Joe. |
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jennykatz
Joined: 15 Dec 2003 Posts: 1678 City/Region: naples
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2006
C-Dory Model: 23 Venture
Vessel Name: Little Treasurer
Photos: Jennykatz
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Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:47 am Post subject: batteries |
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Thanks Joe I'll bring my laptop down to the boat and follow step by step thanks again .Joe hope to see you in Seattle 23-25
Warren hope to see you in Jan .I'm hoping to go to the Seattle Boat show the 23-25 of Jan.
here is my e-mail address give me a heads up widmannfla@aol.com
Jim on Jennykatz |
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Matt Gurnsey Dealer
Joined: 11 Nov 2008 Posts: 1532 City/Region: Port Orchard
State or Province: WA
Photos: Kitsap Marina
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Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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Thoughts off the top of my head, and not necessarily good one:
When two dissimilar batteries are hooked up, the smaller one will usually dictate the charge level- Meaning that once the group 24 is charged, the regulator may think the job is done and drop voltage to stop charging.
Are both batteries deep cycle? Or are they Starting batteries? Or combination?
I am beginning to really like Blue Seas Dual battery system (part number: 7650)- it has a charging relay that automatically isolates the batteries (simple On-Off switch) and still allows combining batteries in an emergency. This will also take care of having batteries with dissimilar characteristics. One of the cool things- if your electronics are on the house bank, cranking the engine will not shut down the electronics.
Does the refer really only use 3 amps? I haven't looked at the specs, but that seems exceptionally efficient.
I think the computer and injectors in the Yamaha take more than 5 amps. But still- the voltage drop seems excessive.
Start with the connections, especially the grounds. _________________ Matt Gurnsey
Kitsap Marina
www.kitsapmarina.com
360-895-2193
(888) 293-7991 |
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 20810 City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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My experience is that the refigerators run more like 5 amps when running, and average about 3 amps--since they don't run all of the time.
Agree with the posts that it is best to have "equal" batteries. Group 31's would be best with the refigerator. You also want to isolate the house battery, so the refer will not run down the engine start battery.
Measuring voltage with the GPS--gives you voltage at the GPS--not the battery--there can be resistance along the way (undersized wires--which is common, corrosion, poor connections etc). Use a volt meter dedicated and connected directly to the battery, rather than a analogue guage or GPS.
I have a 115 Yahama--and they put out 14.4 volts when running. So unless you are having a large loss, or resistance, your voltages are low--and suspect some charging problem as Joe suggests. _________________ Bob Austin
Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
KA6PKB
Home port: Pensacola FL |
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