replacing L-bracket in hull

[journey on]

I've been thinking about Roger & Sarah DuVal's post. As I indicated above, first I thought it was a joke. But what bothers me, is that we're defending our boats from that post. Remember, this whole area is dedicated to discussing C-Dorys, good or bad. And I think that replacing L-brackets is among the minor things one worries about.

So, here's a guy who joined a month ago, and his first post is how bad C-Dories are, and he gives his wife's opinion about that. Sounds to me like he's got an axe to grind, or he's a Bayliner dealer. AND THEN we answer him with honest logic. Ignoring him would be of more service.

And, yes I answered too. But it's not the first post like that; I've ignored the others, but gave my 2 cents worth on this.

Boris

[helm]

How is the water getting into the cabin in the first place. Our 2006 Cd-25 is dry as a bone in the cabin.

We do get water in the bilge under the cockpit floor because of the poorly fitted deck hatches - a defect I still think C-Dory should rectify, but never a drop of water in the cabin.

Eric

[Jack in Alaska]

Thataway...........

After reading your piece above I am convinced that tabbing the panels to the boat fiberglass is the way to go. Thanks.

Also as you said my 25 yr. old C-Dory is in good shape for the use it has had. My "L" brackets are only surface rusted and the screws are more rusty but still holding. It just looks bad and tabbing would ease my mind on the whole subject. That will be my 1st spring project. It will force me to unload all the "crap" in those compartments and clean them out properly.

[alacrity]

Thataway...... When you tab the panels down, how will you remove them in the future if they need to be replaced? I have wood laminate panels. I removed them in the first place to clean the mold off of them and replace those pesky brackets.

[duvalra]

Well Boris,
Thanks for the welcoming reply. Yes, you have me nailed. Except, no I am not a dealer, although I have had 4 or 5 Bayliners. Oh, and no, I don`t have an ax to grind. I have also had 5 Catalina sailboats, up to a 30` which I had for 8 years and had the bottom peeled, and then faired and put a new exopy bottom back on by myself. Working on a boat is part of the joy of owning one, but rusty screws and brackets, along with some other cheesey methods(rub rails pop revited instead of thru bolts among other things I have seen discussed) in my humble opion, is not something I would expect from a factory purported to be producing a higher quality product, intended for rough use.
Replies like yours Boris, can be seen throughout this kind of forum and is why I usually just read without reply but I gotta tell ya- Why don`t you try keeping your opinion toyourself just once? The forum might be a friendlier place. There, said it and I`m outta here. Roger

[thataway]

alacrity, I don't plan on removing the wooden interior. I wonder why you could not clean them in place (my 22 had the "wooden laminate"--and I used various cleaning materials to spruce it up.) However, it is easy to cut the tab, right at the bend, grind it down, and then re tab it. These tabs are only where the "L" brackets are located--and not a full tabbing in a structural bulkhead. (I have removed full structureal bulkheads when rebuilding a boat--and that is not much more difficult--you use a right angle grinder and cutting wheel, to cut the glass at the angle--grind it down, and re tab.

The tabs are about 2" square and precut. I in the one I photgraphed, I had drilled out the screw hole and filled it with Marine Tex, filled the holes in the laminate, then used epoxy to set the tab--it is a fairly quick fix--actually faster than re installing the "L" bracket.

As far as duvalra, I think he just posted himself off the list by insulting Boris. The irony is that he mistook the function of the pop rivets and doesn't understand how the boats are constructed--at least in the boats I own, the hull to deck joint is fiberglassed together. This is the best and strongest way to build the hull to deck joint. The pop rivets are just for the rub rail extrusion, and are epoxied or have some other putty type of filler on the inside. I see many very bad hull to deck joints--C Dory does not have bad hull to deck joints.

[Socrateur]

Yeah, that's too bad about duvalra. I say that because he claims to have had a 20 year interest in the C-Dory and look what happened after just two posts. He came onto the forum too negative, kind of like IdleUp did. But IdleUp hung in there and he came around in the end, and now he is a productive member enjoying his R25. For duvalra, a 20 year interest in C-Dory I would regret seeing go for naught.

[alacrity]

Thanks Thataway, yours posts are very helpful. I have a couple other questions. The fiberglass tabs are precut? Did you do that yourself or purchase them? And you glass them to the floor with cloth and then epoxied the wood laminates to the tabs? Also, the factory recommends 4200 over 5200 for filling the old holes because 4200 is a sealant and not a sealant/adhesive. Any thoughts? To answer your question, I removed the wood because the boat was really filthy (I just bought the boat used), the wood had mold, and the old brackets were clearly rusted. Thanks!

[Montana Kev]

Lots of great information on this thread. On a very similar topic, the 1993, CD 16 I am rehabbing has some rivets missing that hold the side wall panels down to the floor. Can someone suggest the best way to reattach? Should I replace the missing rivets with rivets or use stainless screws with sealant? Should I put antifreeze in the holes to kill any potential dry rot?

Thanks,
Kevin

[thataway]

I pre cut the squares--I have lots of scraps of glass cloth of various types in a scrap box. You could use 2" wide biaxial tape and cut 2" length pieces of this. The 2" wide tape is sold by the foot and not expensive. The Salvage edges make it a bit neater installation. Wet out glass will pretty much retain the shape you put it in. I thickened the epoxy with Cabosil (Fumed Silica) to keep it from running. I roughed up the glass floor by touching it with a disc sander, hit the plywood Laminate with 80 sandpaper. Just cleaning and roughing it up is adequate. I don't agree with putting any sealant (5200 is more adherant than 4200, but still not an adhesive) into screw holes. I feel that putting epoxy into the holes is much better--then the holes are sealed. I don't feel that new screws should be put back into the laminate which screws into the balsa core--and that you should fill the hole with epoxy and then re-drill a pilot hole. You can use 4200 or 5200 to "seal" the screw when you put it back into the thickened epoxy which you sealed the hole with.

I don't know that much about the 16, but assume that it is similar to the 18's 19's and 22's--that there is a balsa cored laminate in the floor. I would be surprised if this was pop riveted into the floor--but if it is, then, I would drill out the holes, fill with something like Marine Tex, and then either tab in the bulkheads as I described above, or if you have to use a metal fastener, then drill a pilot hole, into solid epoxy, and then you can use 4200 or 5200 for a sealant. (I have never had a problem backing a screw out of a fitting which was 5200ed in place--and as some others on this forum--removed both plastic and metal which was put in with 5200 --hot wire, hot putty knife, anti bond etc.)

I would not put in antifreeze prophylactically. I would rather remove any rot, or prevent it by preventing water intrustion into the core. Any mold is limited because of the end grain of the balsa.

[drjohn71a]

Thanks for the detailed info, Dr. Bob. Now I'll know how to tab in those cabinet panels if I ever decide to do so.

As for the negative posts, although sad to see ill feelings, it seems that we humans tend to reach the peak of negativity the closer we get to making a tough decision - and that negativity is usually aimed at the product we are most closely considering to buy.

I remember, almost 40 years ago, as a "close to graduating" dental student, how I railed on and on about the poor design and inefficiency of a particular brand (usually known as a high quality brand name) of dental unit manufacturer. I headed off the the military for a few years and then came back to civilian life and purchased that same name of dental unit for all my operatory rooms. I have now happily used them for over 37 years!

So, it seems that, the more closely we are considering something (or someone), the more negative we become on that topic.

My dad, who was quite old when I was born, always said that the more a politician protests something, or swears he won't do (e.g. 'raise taxes'), the more likely he was, perhaps even subconsciously, considering that action!

How many of your old buddies bit the dust within a year of vehemently protesting that they would never get married? How many girls did you date, who firmly declared they never wanted to get married, that broke up with you within the year if marriage was not at hand?

I hope valrupal or whatever reconsiders and is given a second chance on the site if he wishes.

John

[alacrity]

What's the Salvage edge? Thanks for your patience with my questions. When I actually start this work, I'll have someone knowledgable of fiberglass help me get started.

BTW - the factory was more than happy to send me SS brackets, but I'm nearly convinced to do the fiberglass tabs.

[Captains Cat]

It's really the SELVEGE edge, meaning the ragged edge where it was cut rather than a smooth woven edge of the cloth.

Charlie

[CAVU]

Charlie,
I hate to confuse the issue any further, but I think you got it backwards. The selvage edge Bob was referring to is the smooth finished or factory edge of the cloth or tape. Using 2 inch wide tape and cutting 2 inch long pieces from the tape, you would end up with 2in by 2in pieces with two woven factory edges (selvage) and only two cut edges, for a neater installation. If you cut your pieces from cloth, all four edges would be ragged. It would not effect the strength of the tab, only the neat appearance

[Captains Cat]

Ken, you are correct, my bad....



Selvage
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For the denim, see selvage denim.

The Selvage of a piece of curtain fabric. Note self-finished edge, irregular weave pattern, maker's marks and the start of the main print.In a woven fabric, the selvage (or selvedge) is the uncut edge of the fabric which is on the right- and left-hand edges as it comes out of the loom. As such it is 'finished' and will not fray because the weft threads double back on themselves. The term also refers to the unfinished but structurally sound edges of flat knitted textiles.

Very often fabric near the selvage is not usable as it may have a different weave pattern, or may lack pile or prints that are present on the rest of the fabric requiring that the selvage fabric be cut off or hidden in a hem. In handknitting, the selvage may be considered finished; it may also be used in seaming garments, or finished and reinforced using crochet or other techniques.

Selvage also can refer to the excess area of a printed or perforated sheet of any material, such as the white border area on a sheet of stamps.