replacing L-bracket in hull

alacrity · Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:53 pm Post subject: replacing L-bracket in hull

I recently aquired an '04 22' Cruiser. It had ankle deep water in the cabin, not sure for how long. I've removed just about every L-bracket (also called corner bracket) in the cabin and need to replace most because of rust. Should I be concerned about the balsa core? Do the L-bracket screws on the hull go all the way to the core? Any suggestions how I should re-install the brackets and screws?

THANKS!

rogerbum · Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:00 pm Post subject:

Yes the screws go into the core and yes you should be concerned. This is a topic that has been discussed some before. In most cases, people find a little rot near the screw hole but not too far into the core. Do a search on the site using the term
bracket hole epoxy

and select the "Search for all terms" radio button. That will lead you to the correct information.

journey on · Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:33 pm Post subject:

I need to replace several of the L-brackets that hold the cabinetry to the hull. Does anyone know where I can get decent ones?

All I can find are the usual flashed-zinc brackets in hardware stores.

Other than that I probably can make some out of SS strap.

By the way, since Journey On is stored on a trailer, in one of the driest spots in the world, there's no hull rot.

Boris

Wandering Sagebrush · Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:45 pm Post subject:

Boris,

When I was considering replacing the corner brackets on my boat, the dealer was going to get them from CDory. I only have a couple that show any corrosion, and it's not that bad so I decided to hold off until I take on a major project. Regardless, I think the factory should assist and chip them in for free if your boat is still on warranty.

Steve

thataway · Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:36 pm Post subject:

About a year ago, the factory (when under different management) offered to ship any owners stainless steel "L" brackets free. It might be a good idea to check to see if the factory will still make that offer?

The SS brackets hole pattern is different than the galvanized/nickel plated brackets, so the holes will not match up.

When replacing brackets (and in my opinoin even in new boats), the screws in the hull need to be removed. The holes where the "L" bracket were, drilled out thru the inner glass, and then either a small alan wrench, a sort bent piece of coat hanger or dremel bit, needs to be inserted into the core and the inner balsa close to the hole routed out, and filled with epoxy. Then the hole for the screw is redrilled in the epoxy. The below photos are for illustration only and are done on a sample balsa cored material--not a C Dory hull.

rogerbum · Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:38 pm Post subject:

If you're thinking of putting some time into this, overall I think that you'd be better off taking the brackets out entirely and just glassing the bottom boards in. I believe Thataway Bob did something like this on one of his boats. IMHO, that's a better long term solution than putting in stainless brackets.

Jack in Alaska · Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:07 am Post subject:

Glassing in the partitions is a great idea. Now if I can just get my 305 lb, 6'-2" body into those little compartments to do it all. Also getting the old rusty screws out is going to be a problem.
I have no obvious problem with the brackets but after 25 yrs. they are getting rusty.

It is fun I tell you when working on the dory...........

rogerar · Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:38 am Post subject:

Antifreeze will kill woodrot fungus, why not drip a little in the hole?
If you stick the cabinetry down with 5200, it still can be removed using polyurethane remover, certainly alot better than grinding fiberglass!
Roger

Jack in Alaska · Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:35 am Post subject:

rogerar....

Don't you think the pounding in rough seas will eventually have it come loose when using 5200???? It surely is an easier application.

Jack

duvalra · Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:36 pm Post subject: Disappointed

Hi folks. I`ve been lurking around here for a few weeks, as I was thinking that our next boat might finally be a C-Dory, which I have been in love with for well over 20 years. Having had several dozen boats (both power and sail), I`m no stranger to potential problems and have been concerned about the balsa coring, especially below the waterline. Now, I am hearing that something as simple as the angle brackets and screws are not stainless as recently as five years ago. I find this extremely disappinting along with some other things I have been reading on this forum and am beginning to think my wife`s opinion has been right all along- that C-Dorys are way over priced for what they are. If the factory cheaps out on such minor but important things as screws, it speaks volumes as to where their priorities are. I still think a C-Dory may be in our future, but I will definately have to shop with my head and not my heart(as with any major purchase).

Roger

journey on · Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:38 pm Post subject:

Roger, you're kidding, right?

Boris

drjohn71a · Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:52 pm Post subject:

Roger - potential owner,

I think the newer models have fiberglass cabinetry, not the paneled older type. I also think most new boats of other manufacturers will have occasional non-stainless hardware.

You should notice that, in this thread, a guy is talking about replacing a "25 year old galvanized bracket". I hardly think that should be a red flag to a potential buyer. I know of no C-Dory owner who has suffered serious damage from a galvanized "L" bracket.

I checked this out on my TomCat and took the factory up on it's offer to send out free stainless "L" brackets to anyone worried about corrosion. They sent me the parts, but I as yet have seen no need to replace the original galvanized brackets.

The balsa core has great advantages, not only in better strength/weight ratios, but also in providing larger, more open inside storage and cabin room, sound and temperature insulation, etc.. Only a very few, abused hulls - left years with openings to the water - have suffered any significant damage. There is no hull material with which the owner/operator can drill, rivet and attach to without taking that material's specific, unique properties under consideration. Aluminum and steel have attachment constraints as does pure fiberglass or synthetically cored fiberglass.

None of the hull materials allow you to just blindly drill and bolt through without regards to it's properties.

Pure fiberglass without cores is very very heavy and needs more supporting structure than cored hulls. While synthetically cored hulls may not suffer internal rot if drilled and attached to without epoxy cores, the intervening water will flow along the layers and unsupported attachments will eventually break out of the surface.

John

marvin4239 · Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:59 pm Post subject:

My 2007 22 has the molded interior and as far as I can tell it doesn't have any penetrations into the core in the bottom.

rogerar · Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:50 pm Post subject:

5200 is not as strong as fiberglass, but I'll bet it's stronger than the "L" brackets as installed!!
Roger

thataway · Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:51 pm Post subject:

Rogerar--I don't know which C Dory you own, but I don't know of any which would be well served by having the interior structure "stuck down" with 5200. There are small gaps between the floor and the wood of the cabinets (older boats with wooden built up interiors). The hull will flex slightly, the wood will not. Even with bulkheads which are fully tabbed in, there is an allowance for this flexing, with a foam wedge or spreading out the tabbing over a large surface, and allowing room for the flexing. 5200 is not an adhesive--it is meant as a sealant. Some times it sticks very well, and occasionaly it does not. But it will not take load well in stretching, and is not intended for this purpose.

Yes, I have replaced the "L" brackets in the CD 25 with fiberglass tabs. I do feel that an any boat where the core is drilled into, you should either drill out and replace the screws--or do the tabs. I didn't address the tabs, because of the question about replacing the screws and plated/galvanized brackets.

There are very few places in the C Dory hulls where the brackets are used, where water will stand, with the boat in the water--or with the transom down on a trailer. On some boats, positioned so that water can get into the cabin, there could be some minor intrusion of water into the core around rusting screws.

duvalra The issue is not plated or galvanized screws--but drilling into the core. This has been done since the boats were first made, and to my knowledge there has been no failure of the hulls due to this practice. I feel that it can be done better--and if I was building the boats, I would tab the bulkheads into the hull. But that is quite labor intensive. What is unique about this site, is that we are all honest about the criticisms of the boats--The factory has taken many of our criticisms and improved the boats through the years. You and your wife are entitled to your opinions--but I would suggest looking at a 25 year old C Dory and compare it to any other 25 year old boat--and then draw a conclusion--You will find that the C dory will fair much better than any but perhaps some very high end custom boats. In fact, I would say that the C Dory is the best value for the $$ in a boat that size--and my owning two C Dories is testimony to my conviction.

Below is an illustration of the way I tabbed in all of the wooden structure of the CD 25 by filling the holes, then securing with 18 oz triaxial cloth and epoxy between the hull and the laminate covered plywood structure: This totally resolves any potential issues.