Gelcoat - Care and Restoration

[cbadmin]

From: Mike (Original Message) Sent: 11/24/2002 10:07 PM
Tips, suggestions and product recommendations for the restoration, preservation and cleaning of the gelcoat surfaces on the CD exterior.

From: Mike Sent: 11/24/2002 10:08 PM
Catman -

Now that you have finally signed on, here is our first request. Your 16' C-Dory is a 1989, I believe, and it looks as good as a brand new one. The Bambina is pretty. What is that you do to keep it that way?

Mike

From: Mike Sent: 11/24/2002 10:09 PM
When we first brought the TyBoo home, it looked pretty sad. There was lots of discoloration and oxidation. A product I found at a local marine store that did a great job of restoring the surface colors and finish was 3M Marine Fiberglass Restorer and Wax. It is a wax with a fair amount of rubbing compound in it.

Instead of applying it like a standard wax, where you wipe it on and let it dry to a haze before rubbing, with this stuff you start rubbing it in right away and don't stop until the surface is clean of the product. A whole bunch of work! I tried using a random-orbit polisher, but found that the plain old hand and elbow worked the best. You have to do smalll areas at a time, but it is easy to see where you have used it. Real easy. I would suggest having the jumbo bag of terry towels from Costco on hand, because you'll go through a bunch of them. The stuff does a remarkable job.

They also make a similar product, for lightly oxidized surfaces, that contains less rubbing compound. That works good, but does not have the stain removing abilities as the restorer and wax product. The use directions suggest treating the surface with a standard marine grade wax after restoring. That adds a little more shine to the surface, and probably provides more protection.

If the condition of the gelcoat on our boat was typical of a 13 year old hull, I would venture to say that the use of this product took a good 10 years off her age. It's application did add a couple years onto my age, however.

Mike

From: stevej Sent: 11/26/2002 12:20 PM
Mike have a couple of additions for this thread

I agree with your remarks on the 3M restorer and wax. Does wonders for heavy oxidation and is painful to apply. After doing the 3M thing on Shearwater the finished result was not up to my gloss standard because of the high abrasion of the compound. In order to buff out the fine scratches left by the 3M product I followed this with a polishing compound (turtle wax), then put down a straight 3M fiberglass wax and followed that with one of the new age polishes like Nu-Finish. This will provide a super glossy shine that will last a year at a minimum and force you wear sunglasses on a sunny day around the boat.
Another option for the heavy stuff would be using 800 or 1000 grit wet paper.

With that said I came across a product recently at the local ACE hardware under the product name of "The last fiberglass cleaner you'll ever buy" and "The last fiberglass wax you'll ever buy" It's a local Portland product I believe by Apex chemical. This stuff is a giant step forward for ease of use and longevity. The transom boot on shearwater to pass the motor cables through bleeds rust and stains the gelcoat. Using the 3M product it was rub rub rub for three minutes to remove. The Apex cleaner is about as thick as water and you apply with a sponge, removed the rust in 5 seconds and does the same for light to medium oxidation. Even better you wash it off with soap and water no buffing required. The wax is almost as good although once again not a glossy as I would like but beads water forever.

I'll pull the manufacture address and phone number off a bottle and post if anyone is interested.

steve



From: Mike Sent: 11/26/2002 10:00 PM
Steve -

It sounds like you are a little more fond of sunglasses than I am. Just the cleaner wax was enough work for me. Of course, the difference was so dramatic it might have just looked good enough. Next year's treatment might leave me less pleased with the finish. However, I would be very interested in the "last stuff I'll ever need" stuff. If you would post the info, I would appreciate it, as would a few other not-so-hot-for-buffing guys.

The rust stain remarks are interesting. I get a lot of discoloration beneath the steering tube. It is a lot of work to get it cleaned off. I found that a Scotch Brite pad works pretty good. The cleaner wax with the compound completely removes the light scratches the pad leaves.

Acetone is real good for getting surface stains off, as well as sealant and adhesive residue. It doesn't appear to hurt the gelcoat surface any. Do you know if it is totally safe for the finish? I also use it to dry out holes in the glass prior to sealing.

Thanks for the tips. Maybe next summer at St. Helens you can demonstrate the application techniques. I am a slow learner, so allow yourself an hour or two.

Mike

From: stevej Sent: 12/4/2002 7:14 AM
Mike I don't think the "last stuff you'll ever need" folks are around any longer. The phone number goes to an answering machine, I let a message but no call back as of yet.
My pals at ACE no longer carry it and I bought all they had a couple months ago.
The details on the bottle -
Titan Chemical Co.Marine care products
1402 NE Alberta
Portland, Oregon 97211
(503)284-9767
Might drive by next time I'm in that part of town as I really do like the product or If I get a call back I'll let you know.

I'm afraid it takes me a six pack and couple hours just to do the pre wax analysis so about the only technique you could observe would be the 12oz. press followed by a nap.

steve

From: Mike Sent: 12/20/2002 1:25 PM
Here's a neat trick for drilling through the gelcoat. Using a sharp countersink bit to make the finished hole will allow you to cut all the way through without chiping the remaining gelcoat around the hole. If the finished hole is to be something other than the size of your countersink, then drill the hole slightly smaller than the finished hole, then use a countersink to cut a bevel into the gelcoat that is slightly larger than the finished hole size. Then when you shove the finished size drill though it, you won't get the chips and cracks in the surrounding gelcoat. Slightly countersinking a hole prior to putting a screw into it will also help prevent gelcoat chipping.

From: Fun Patrol Sent: 12/21/2002 8:13 AM
Hi Doggies

I cant' help but think that outfit "Last Wax You'll Ever Need" must have been "eliminated" by the regular wax companies. Or, if their claims were true, they eliminated themselves with the product being so good there were no repeat sales. Wish I had some, .... never again to toil over oxidized gel coat!

The last polish and wax for Fun Patrol was done by a detail shop for $200. Sure was easy.....for me. The guy took all day, actually about 10 hours with good tools and materials. It looked great! But, alas, there are no secrets. He used a variety of abrasives to remove what he could of the oxidation, and applied a "sealant", a buzz word for somebody's idea of a whiz-bang miracle space-age wax-like secret formula. He said it is what they use on new cars and should last 3 years, although he would recomend redoing it every year. Well, the short version is.....it lasted about a month like all other wax.

Roy's favorite method. Keep the sun off your boat with a shed or cover and use "Protect All", available from Camping World. It's a liquid wax so goes on easy, and requires little or no wiping after. I just hit it once, fast. One towel will do the whole boat. Might as well have something that goes on easy, as it all goes away too easily.

Later....Roy

From: Da_Nag™ Sent: 1/12/2003 3:36 PM
I'm going to apologize up front for sounding like a paid mouthpiece, but I just found some cleaner/wax that blew me away with it's ease of application, and ability to remove stains.

The stuff: Collinite #870 Fleetwax. It's pricey (about $40 for a half gallon), but well worth it. It looks like I can get 8-10 applications out of the half gallon.

A little background...

My 19 Angler isn't that old (about 8 months as of this writing), but it had never been waxed. Quite frankly, I've been a little lax on hull maintenance and care. I've kept Da Nag relatively clean, but nothing more than an occasional bath after every few trips out. It wasn't until a few weeks ago that I kept her covered. She spent the entire summer in the sun, and due to birds, trees, bugs, and lots of towing, the hull surface was starting to show signs of being neglected.

Last weekend, I decided to giver her a good scrubbing, and noticed numerous stains that were not coming off with elbow grease and soap. I wasn't aware gelcoat was so porous; there were tons of these stains, and they were damn ugly. I was kicking myself for not having waxed her sooner. My thoughts were turning towards rubbing compounds, and lots of physical labor that quite frankly, I abhor.

I bought the Collinite a while ago, but didn't think of it as anything other than a wax. On a whim, I tested it on some of the cabin roof top stains, and was amazed; the same stains I had scrubbed like crazy on with soap and water were coming of with incredible ease. Basically, I just rubbed the stuff in with very little effort, waited for the haze, and rubbed it off with a clean terry cloth towel. During the initial rub, you could see the stains disappearing, and after the final wipe, the surface was incredibly smooth and clean.

I can't speak to the longevity of the finish yet, but based on feedback I saw while researching this stuff, it's supposed to last quite a while - one or two applications per season. Even if it requires more frequent application, fine by me - this stuff was effortless to apply - the entire boat took me about an hour.

The final test - the motor well. I had rotting, wet leaves sitting in there for who knows how long, and a bunch of black marks from rubbing control cables. The only stain it failed to remove with ease appeared to be a small fuel stain.

Good stuff, highly recommended.

Bill

From: Mike Sent: 1/12/2003 4:27 PM
OK - you got me convinced. I would like to give it a try. I looked over the web site you linked, and did not find a list of retailers with a store I could walk into. The nearest distributor is in Bellingham, WA, and there is one in San Diego, CA. Where and how did you get yours?

Forty bucks for half a gallon sounds like a lot, but it is actually less than the 3M Cleaner/wax I have been using. It is close to twelve bucks for a pint bottle. It is a lot of work to use, too. If this stuff you are touting works as good for my older gelcoat as you promise in your ad, then I'm liking it.

Thanks for the tip, and let us know how it holds up.

Mike

From: Da_Nag™ Sent: 1/12/2003 4:58 PM
Got mine at the local BoatsUS, but there are several places online that sell it. Google is your friend.

One thing I can't lay claim to, though - my gelcoat has not faded, it was just stained. I have no idea how well this stuff might work on older gelcoat surfaces.

Bill

From: Moskwass Sent: 1/13/2003 9:23 PM
Hey there Mike
I see that the wax is up in bellingham at the Lumi Fish Supply. that is where I buy my crab and shrimp gear. If you want, I can drive up there and pick some up for you. just let me know and I will have it at the BS for you.
Roger

From: Mike Sent: 1/13/2003 9:27 PM
Roger - you're an amazing guy. That is a very kind offer, but I think I am going to wait until a little closer to spring to get it. Got other things I want to buy for the boat, and my wife has doubts about me needing them.

Thanks just the same, and we'll get it next time.

Mike

From: 2nd Byte Sent: 1/14/2003 12:02 AM
Bill, thanks for passing the info along on the Collinite#870 Fleet Wax. Sounds like good stuff and just what I need.

Roger and Mike, if Lumi in Bellingham has the
C.870 FW then the Lumi in Seattle should have it as well. They are located off Ballard Way in Seattle.

Mike, I find it hard to believe that Kay would doubt you, when you propose a need for your flotilla of 1.
....surely you jest!

Mark


From: STIMPY'S DAD Sent: 1/14/2003 6:13 AM
Hi Mark,
If you have time and find out that the Lumi store in Seattle does in- fact carry the Collinite # 870 please post this on the site. I don't get up your way to shop very often and this stuff sounds like it is just what I need for the "STIMPY"
Thank you Doug on "STIMPY"

From: Moskwass Sent: 1/14/2003 4:43 PM
Doug,
I called LFS today in bellingham and they gave me the 800 # for LFS Seattle 1-800-647-2135.
I called them and they say that they have the #870 on the shelf. the are not open on weekends so you will need to get there friday. or they said they can mail some out to ya
hows this for service
Roger

From: STIMPY'S DAD Sent: 1/14/2003 6:46 PM
GREAT SERVICE
THANK YOU I'LL CALL THEM IN THE AM.
THANKS , DOUG

From: Mike Sent: 7/3/2003 3:48 PM
I got a little carried away cleaning the boat today. I used this stuff called Barkeeper's Friend to remove the stains that would never wash off. It is amazing stuff. Just wet the surface, wet a towel, sprinkle a little of the cleaner on the towel, and wipe the stain. It takes rust, scum, and all manner of other stains right off the gelcoat with very little rubbing. It is mildly abrasive, but with the slight rubbing pressure required, is isn't doing much abraiding. The primary ingredient is Oxalic acid, and I guess that is what makes it so effective. It leaves a slight powdery residue which can be easily rinsed off. It will also remove any trace of wax on the gelcoat, so be sure you really want that stain gone before you use it.

Today I washed the whole durn boat with the stuff. I noticed in the spots where I initially used it for particular stains, the gelcoat ended up much cleaner and brighter than the surrounding areas. So, I just kept going. The seemingly imbedded scum along the water line that I normally clean off completely once a year using rubbing compound wiped right off. All the minor stains disappeared with a simple wipe over, and the tougher ones - some of which had been on the boat since before I got it - came off with two or three swipes. The real test was in the motor well where the grunge and rust from the steering and other motor mechanicals were thought to be permanent stains. I used just a little extra of the cleaner, and it all wiped away with the same wet towel.

Of course, all the wax is stripped, too, but it was needing a new coat anyway. Next I am going to wash the hull with soap and water to remove any of the residue and loose dirt left. Then, tomorrow, I start waxing.

From: josepepper Sent: 7/3/2003 6:43 PM
Mike,

Thanks for the info, I just placed an online order for a bunch of the stuff. I really need to clean the whole boat well. The boat is parked under a tree and the sap on the hardtop is awful, I wash it every week but the stains don't come out. One other thing about this stuff, it's really inexpensive. Looking forward to trying it.

Thanks Again,



From: DaveS™ Sent: 7/3/2003 8:34 PM
You can also find Barkeepers Friend at some grocery stores. I've used it for a few years on fiberglass showers and tubs. (Located in the section with comet, windex etc).

From: Mike Sent: 7/4/2003 6:47 AM
Yep. I got mine at Fred Meyer.

One thing it does not do is clean the white StarBoard (or whatever it is) material that is used for the panels in front of the fuel tanks. There are spots on them that are almost black. Nothing I have tried yet even touches the stains. I even tried acetone to see if it would disolve the surface, but nope. Them things may just have to stay ugly. So far, I have tried car wash soap, Barkeeper's Friend, Comet Cleanser, and a stiff brush with all of them. Maybe some bleach is in order, but you would think the Comet would have enough in it. Any suggestions?

From: Redƒox Sent: 7/7/2003 10:15 AM
This stuff is really good at removing certain ahiesive bassed stuff, what do you think?

From: kenonBlue-C Sent: 7/8/2003 8:01 AM
That toulene stuff is nasty, toxic stuff. It would work most excellent for removing and cleaning objects but perhaps as a last resort. I've used some citris based decal goo remover called "Goo Gone" that seemed to work good at loosening up that glue that's left on after decal removal and won't hurt the gelcoat or paint underneath.


From: josepepper Sent: 7/8/2003 1:11 PM
Does anyone know how to remove the very fine surface cracks in the gelcoat finish? They are not chips or gouges but appear to be (lines)? in the surface, they are in several areas of the boat but do not appear to have any real significance other than just as a repair for appearance. Compounding hasn't taken them out, I am already using a C-Dory suggested gelcoat paste kit for the chips.

Thanks

From: Mike Sent: 7/8/2003 6:33 PM
Acetone has worked for every adhesive I've tried it on. Including 3M 5200.

From: Mike Sent: 7/8/2003 6:44 PM
Oh, you ain't gonna like this, Josepepper. If all else fails, you can get the surface cracks or scratches out with 400 and/or 600 grit wet sanding. The previous name on my boat left raised areas of the gelcoat where the letters were stuck on. You could easily read the old name if the light was right. I used 400 grit, followed by 600 grit and lots of water to smooth them off. Only in one little spot did the gelcoat get thin enough to start showing darkness through it.

Before you try the sandpaper, though, you might try some 3M Marine Fiberglass Restorer and Wax. It is a lot of work to use, but it does an excellent job. It has enough rubbing compound in it to actually remove material. You don't put it on and let it dry like a regular wax. You apply it and keep rubbing it in until it is gone. Takes a while and some muscle, but it seems to fill minor scratches it doesn't take all the way off and makes them disappear. Sounds weird, but it works, and they stay gone until the wax is stripped or worn off.

Mike

From: Mike Sent: 7/8/2003 6:48 PM
Well, that link doesn't seem to work. Here is the stuff listed in West Marine's online catalog.

From: C-DOG_Ken Sent: 7/8/2003 8:23 PM
Hi, Josepepper,

Those minor cracks in the gelcoat (sometimes referred to as "spidering" because they look like a fine spiderweb), are truly nothing to worry about. The fiberglass layer underneath is most likely still intact, inless your surface cracks are wide.

Gelcoat is extremely brittle, and develops this spidering through stress and temperature changes. Removing it totally can be difficult, because generally when gelcoat cracks, it cracks all the way through to the fiberglass layer below.

To minimize it getting worse, a good quality wax to seal the fine cracks will prevent moisture from entering, and causing the cracks to widen from temperature changes, and especially from freezing.

"Sanding" the spidering will make it look like it was removed, but generally you are just filling the fine cracks with gelcoat "dust", so you can no longer see the cracks. Which is fine, as long as you put a good protective coat of wax on top.

Ken

From: Redƒox Sent: 7/9/2003 1:47 AM
I'm with Ken the C-Dog on this one. True the cracks go all the way to the fibers in the resin. I heard that bleach hides them best, because it actually bleaches out the color of the crack, hiding them the best. I really never worried about it so I never tried it, niether do I like working with bleach.

RE: Toulene. Yip that stuff is super strong, but I find it to be the only solvent that will budge stuff even acetone will not! don't be afraid! give it a try Mike. It sounds to me like that area your mentioning is just begging for a 'toulene treatment' to me.

And lastly.... when I redid my gelcoat this spring, I have a heavy duty Milwaki buffer polisher that there is simply no substitute for. That and starting out with heavy duty rubbing compound works wonders!

From: Redƒox Sent: 7/9/2003 2:02 AM
Hey I like it over here in the "Library" not hard to miss anything here. One more thought. That solvent works best using a brush that will keep the 'wetness level' high, (O jeez for lack of better words here) one needs to saturate the stained area as much as possible for maximum afectiveness.

cha ching... I'm outa here greg

From: josepepper Sent: 7/9/2003 5:56 AM
Thanks folks, that's very informative advice. The (cracks)? do look like spiderwebs and I have found that the boat spent it's days outdoors in winter and in the water in summer, surely there were a lot of temp changes on the hull. I will try a combination of light wet sanding and the wax. I also wonder if gelcoat could be applied and forced somehow into the cracks?

Been out twice so far, taking the wife Blue Crab hunting on friday morning. I hope she likes being out on the Bay!!!

From: Redƒox Sent: 7/9/2003 11:59 AM
I know where some of my latest stress cracks came from! it was from having to get back to town once in the late winter in a good blow out in the Port Well area in the PW' Sound. I was comming clear out of the water trying to fight my against the waves that day. It was so rough the VHF radio broke out of its monting braket! Latter I noticed more cracks in the gelcoat around the window frames. Nothing to worry about though, they do come from the higher stress areas that flex more than the other places. Question I have is:

Is the a paint that is better than gel coat to redo the boat in? paints will at least flex some. New gel coat over old does not get a chemical bond anymore, only a mechanical bond, sorry to report that! I would much rather have a good quality paint over my C-Dory than that brittle old gel coat.
Greg


From: C-Wolf1 Sent: 7/11/2003 9:43 PM
Greg- The best type of paint for a fiberglass boat is LPU, or linear polyurethane. They repaint sailboats and cruisers with it, and they come out new looking. The very best of it is a a two part catalytic paint, like epoxy, but much more flexible and it has great flow characteristics.

It's so flexible they use it to paint aluminum and wooden masts that have to have the paint stretch a tremendous amount without debonding as the mast bends. This also means that it'sd so flexible that it doesn't crack when the paint suffers an impact on the side of the hull.

The flow characteristics allow the paint to flow out to a very smooth ultra-high gloss before setting up. Professionals spray it on, using forced air breathing set ups (the spray can be very poisionous), but us amatures (sp.?) can apply it with a proper roller and get results that look amazing. It's been a few years since I've painted with it, but some research on the net should give you some good advice. As usual, the West Advisor in the W-M Catalogue or on line would be a great place to start. Unfortunately, LPU paint now costs about $50 a quart, but the results are well worth it. Joe

From: Da_Nag™ Sent: 10/19/2003 1:22 PM
Just a follow-up on the #870 Fleet Wax...

Regarding the longevity of the application - it's not bad, but not as good as others that I've read about.

Looks like 2-3 applications a year will do it. I just finished applying number two for the year, it took 45 minutes. I keep the boat covered, and wasn't out in the summer California sun a whole bunch this year. I'm guessing I'm able to apply it about 2-3x as fast as the typical harder carnubas, so there's probably no real time savings assuming these waxes last longer. However, as mentioned earlier, the ease of application, and the ability to easily clean up stains that soap and water don't work on still makes it my wax of choice.

From: Redƒox Sent: 10/19/2003 7:44 PM
Joe. Oh my gosh, howd I miss this one? I must have been out on another halibut safari or another pirate adventure, perhaps? (daaa-ohhhh)

Thanx a zillion for the come back on that paint. Well some day, I just might want to repaint old RF, if I do, I will probably NOT go with Gel coat... for obvious reasons! (new over old GC' leaves much to be desired!) I see old areas that were re-coated on the RF, the stress cracks show through, eventually. Greg

[Redƒox]

Some things I found about LP....

a. The stuff is REALLY expensive. Budget something
like $120 for the urethane, reducer, catalyst,etc.
This will buy you enough LP to spray two boats, (kyaks) but
you can't buy the material in smaller than quart
amounts. Use isoproply alcohol for cleanup, vs laquer
thinner.
b. The stuff is an isocyanate. Remember Bophal (sp?)
India? Yup, 3000 people were killed from an isocyanate
chemical spill. Preferred breathing protection is
a forced air mask. If you must, use an expensive
charcoal mask. Forget paper filters. This stuff
is toxic.
c. Use clean air. I spray from a scuba tank (good,
dry, oil-free air), but a good oil- and water-seperating
filter on a compressor will work also.
d. Use a good gun to spray with. I went through
two $50 Binks guns before I broke down and spent
$160 on a DeVilbis (sp?) gun. The stuff sprays much
better with a good gun.
e. Any idiot can spray the stuff. My results justify
that opinion! If I can do it, anybody can. The
results are beautiful, and I wouldn't use any other
finish material.

[Adeline]

A friendly heads up. I was filling a couple of holes as I upgraded my on-board charger when I thought I would offer up what I think is a fine product for minor gelcoat repairs. Adeline, being an '89 C-Dory, has gelcoat in a shade called "Colonial Ivory" (the whiteish tone). The product is "Sea-Fit Gelcoat Quick Fix" in Buff White(#348550). I've used it for several years and it has kept it's color match faithfully. Available at West Marine. It is used right out of the tube, requiring no catalyst or tinting. It's a great match for the gelcoat and the interior spatter. Pete

[Sea Wolf]

While talking with Bill Ferking at the Lake Shasta get together, he mentioned that in conversations with the factory folks he had been told that environmental restrictions had forced them to use a different type of top coating than traditional polyester gel coat. I asked him about this again in a Private Message to be sure before I quoted him here, and here's his response:

"With regards to gelcoat, yes they (Tolands) were talking about the gelcoat on the exterior. They said the new finish would not hold up as well as gelcoat. I don't recall what it was. They banned them from using gelcoat because of environmental laws. There are many boat manufacturers in that area, I wonder if it effects them all or if a special room and air filtering is needed and C-Dory refused to comply. I'm sure there is more to that story."

If this is the case, how much less durable is it and how should it be best taken care of to extend it's life? Does anyone else know anything about this issue? Has the factory acknowledged the difference and made recommendations on how to treat these newer boats? When exactly did the change take place and which boats are therefore affected? The Toland's are past history, so I don't know how far back this goes, but what's the story here?

I don't want to cause undue alarm, but if the newer boats require different care, we ought to know about it! Joe.