25 Tug questions...answered!

[Grumpy]

In the meantime y'all should sneak off to the "Boats afloat" show on Lake Union and go look at hull #3 in the water.

Looks and feels real nice. As always there are some things that I personally would do differently but I have not yet seen the "perfect" boat and we all need something to do in the winter.. right !

Sorry I forgot to take my tape measure or I would have tried to answer some questions.

BTW. If you get there too early it will cost you a fortune in West Marine !!!

Merv

[dtol]

Well, it may be that the C-Ranger will have to go on a weight reduction program. I just found out that C-Dory is having some problems meeting EPA standards with the Yanmar engines and even with the 125 must detune it to 110hp. I don't know why.

This indicates to me that the hulls that are at the dealers now have detuned 125s

I am dealing on the boat that would get the last 125 that they will install. The rest will be 110s. It would be delivered in January.

I really need more performance information bad.

This will be our last hurrah and I don't want to end up being dissappointed each time I climb in the boat.

I really question whether I will be happy with this boat if it will be underpowered according to weight and design specs. It appears that the 125hp Yanmar at 125hp couldn't achieve the performance specs claimed by C-Dory. I have emailed C-Dory for some answers but haven't gotten anything yet.


I took a look at the Yamerhammer (Yanmar) website and the next size engine available is the 160hp 4LHA-HTP and it is big.

Engine 110 125 160

Wt 478lb 504lb 794lb
GPH@Max-200 RPM 4.8@ 3000 5.8@ 3600 7.5@3100
Displacement 121.7cu in 122cu in 211 cu in

The 110 and 125 are definately different blocks[/list]

[Pat Anderson]

I doubt that the rest will be 110s - I think they will do what they have to do to deliver a boat that performs as advertised. It would be very unlike either C-Dory or the Livingstons to send out a boat known not to be able to perform as advertised.

[dtol]

What I said about which motor will be provided as an option and about detuning and problems meeting EPA standards with the 125 was told by C-Dory to my Dealer today.

[Les Lampman]

Glad you found the information on the Volvo Penta D3; it's the engine that's being considered for the boat now. One of the interesting things about this engine and the new Yanmar BY series is that they're high speed diesels (usually having a 4,000 rpm redline) and deliver their power more akin to gas engines then to the traditional "run at 75% to 80% power" diesels used so long in trawler-style boats. So they're intended to run more in the 3,000 to 3,200 rpm range with some reserve horsepower rather than delivering most of what they've got hour after hour.

There are lots of ways to look at the CR25 and not everyone is going to have the same expectations, needs or desires. One could do a lot worse than a CR25 equipped with a natuarally aspirated Yanmar 55 cruising at 7.5 knots with enough reserve horsepower to push the boat to 10 or 11 knots with a real-world load aboard. This speed will let you get through places like Deception Pass or run into harbor a little faster if needed though I wouldn't count on cruising at that speed continuously. On the other hand the hull seems as though it's going to run quite well from perhaps 15 knots up (as I said in my first post I could only achieve 13 or so knots and it wasn't quite there...but close). It will take more horsepower than currently offered (they can/will install the Yanmar 125) if you consistently want to run at 15 knots and above and truthfully for that application I'd use the 190-hp Volvo D3 or the similar horsepower Yanmar BY engine; either will allow a sufficient margin of horsepower to deal with heavy loads, wind, rough seas or a combination of any or all of them. Really, this is what we're used to with a C-Dory 22, CD25, or almost any other higher speed planning boat. The CD25 is capable of running over 30 knots when light but I would venture to say most run between 15 knots and 20 knots. That means when there is an extra load aboard the throttle gets advanced a bit more but otherwise we keep on keeping on at our normal cruising speed...we just use a bit more of our reserve horsepower. When you install an engine that's intended to run at 75% to 80% of its rated power continuously you have don't have the luxury of reserve power to tap when the load climbs and that's what's happened in the case of the CR25. It's already using all available power to attain cruise speed when it's light and there's just nothing left to call upon (horsepower-wise) when the weight climbs.

For those that desire higher cruising speeds (15 knots and above) I believe the C-Ranger 25 will be an excellent choice once enough horsepower is available to achieve those speeds with full cruising loads. There's nothing about the hull that's been surprising to me and when comparing to other hulls it won't take any more horsepower to move the CR25 to the intended cruise speed than any other boat I'm familiar with in the same genre. The Rosborough RF-246 is the closest boat I can think of. We've rigged two of them; the last with twin BF135 Honda's to get it to cruise in the 20's and it's a lighter boat than the CR25.

I do agree that the CR25 won't meet the numbers originally published on the boat but that doesn't make the CR25 a bad boat (there isn't a thing inherently wrong with the design); it only means the estimated numbers weren't valid. Now that we know where the boat does run and what it takes to do so it will be a very good choice for folks looking for either a slower speed cruiser (with some reserve speed) with a Yanmar 55 or a nice (relatively) high speed cruiser with a 190hp engine or so.

RE: The Dinghy. My comments (for once) were not in depth regarding this in my previous post. It really depends on the dinghy; a small lightweight dinghy like you would use on the C-Dory 22 or 25 will probably fit on the top of the rear cabin area without a lot of trouble and if kept relatively low in weight (say under 50 pounds) it would probably work just fine. What I don't think is going to go up there easily is an 8'6" or so hard-bottom infaltable with a 9.9 engine hanging on the transom. It's not that something can't be engineered, with enough money and thought almost anything is possible, it's just that it means you've got a faily heavy dinghy swinging off to the side of the boat every time you launch and retrieve it and doing so from the cabin top could get "interesting". I'd throw an Avon Redstart or similar up on the cabin and call it good if I wanted the swim step clear.

That swim step is stout; I've personally been on it with 3 other 200-pounders (I don't think we were even thinking about where we were standing!) and it didn't budge at all. It shouldn't be much of a chore to mount a kicker on the swim step at all.

[Pat Anderson]

I don't think C-Dory or the Livingstons, let alone your dealer, know what they are going to do about this situation. I actually was at the Ranger factory yesterday, missed Dave and John by 15 minutes, but chatted quite a while with Lynn Livingston, and I am pretty sure that none of them will let the C-Dory, Ranger or Livingston name be associated with a dog...

[Les Lampman]

[thataway]

Dtol, you need to look at the 4BY series--122 cu inches and 550 lbs. This is configured in 150 and 180 hp--and would seem be the logical next step up in HP.

I have a friend with one of the 4 JH 3-- 125 hp in his 55 foot sail boat--30,000 lbs--and it pushes it at an honest 11 to 12 knots. But this is a unique boat with a very narrow waterline hull form, a keel and underwater hull form which is very effecient--and a boat which will sail in this same speed range. He runs this engine in the 7 to 8 knot range almost all of the time to keep fuel consumption down. There are differences between the 4 JH 3 and 4 JH 4 series engines.

I would think that if the boat is designed for this speed, that it would take minimal modification of the engine beds for the higher HP. (all of these mods can be costly to the manufactuer)--I couldn't find the width of the spacing of the mounts athwartships--but look fairly close to the previous engines.

[dtol]

Les

Can they install a motor in a new boat if it doesn't meet emission standards? I think they had to detune the 125 to get it to meet the standards.

Thataway

The Penta D3-130, 160, and 190 weigh 264lbs and have a 146cu in displacement.

I hope they make a decision soon because I have decided that I won't buy this boat with a discontinued motor that won't meet national emission standards and they are just trying to eliminate existing stock and can't get the boat on plane. If it would and I am wrong, I wish someone trialing the 3 that have been delivered would let us know.

As you all can probably tell, I am in the new boat buying syndrome here.

I will find out monday if the dealer can negotiate a different motor. Construction hasn't started on it yet. Delivery is scheduled for January though.

[Les Lampman]

[oldgrowth]

[thataway]

Dtol,
You need to go back to the spec sheet on the Volvo Penta D3 series. The 160 weight is 511lbs (bobtail-I believe)--I think you got the KG and lbs mixed up. There is no way there is a 160 hp diesel with a weight of 263 lbs! The 4 BY Yanmar and D3 Penta are comperable engines, with perhaps one exception; I believe that the Yanmar was designed as a marine engine primarly.

The Vovlo is a car engine modified for marine use. Volvo has a long and varied history. There are two facts--the engines are green and parts are expensive--all the rest is open to debate. Generally some of the smaller engines did not have good reputations, but the larger heavier commercial engines did. I have owned mostly the larger commercial Volvo's--and they are excellent engines. One has to be cautious with any of the super light, high speed engines. I discussed these engines with Robert Smith (American Marine--the importer of the Ford Lehman--and one of the gurus of trawler type of engines) over dinner one night. His impression is that the smaller high speed diesels are not going to have the longevity that the traditional slower engines have enjoyed. The old Atlas and Gardner--really slow speed engines (200 to 800 RPM) lasted for decades. The mid speed engines lasted in the 10,000 or so hour range (If cared for)--example Ford, Deere and Perkins which ran at 1800 most of the time. Now we are into a series of engines which turn up close to 4000 RPM. Look at the torque curves of theses engines vs the HP. How long are these high speed engines going to last? I note that many of the "Picinic" type of boats with these light engines are being repowered in only a few years.

If you run these high speed engines conservitatively, they will last very well. If you push them and run them nearly flat out, they will most likely not last. Most boaters do not run their engines much--and more rust out, sieze because of water intrustion etc--than actually wear out up until now.
That may change with the high speed diesels. Running the boat on a plane is like running a truck up hill all of the time, not something which a car engine was designed for.

I gave a lot of thought about if I wanted a diesel "trailerable trawler" which might get up to 20 knots, or the cat which I knew would easily go 30 knots. I choose the cat, based on that need for speed at times. The diesel engines will still be 20 to 30% more effecient than the gas engines--but it will take a long time--if ever, to make up for that increased effeciency.

Incidently Yanmar has an excellent reputation of supporting its engines. I found that in Europe it was very easy to obtain parts for a Yanmar engine that I had on my gen set.

Regards,

[dtol]

You are right about the weight Bob. I spent the afternoon looking at the Yanmar BY series and the Volvo D3 series and Volvo D3-160 seems to be the best bang for the buck. I will see if I can get some of the numbers in a format that people can understand.

[dtol]

Yanmar - Volvo Penta[

list]150 - 160 - 180 - 190 HP

Continous HP@ 3600 rpm 114 hp 155 ??? 137 rpm 188 hp ??
Wt 551 lb 511 lbs
Displacement 122 cu in 146 cu in
Length 37in 42in
Width 29.4 in 25.8 in
Hight 29.1 in 26.4

GPH @ 2000 rpm 1.8gph 1.7 gph 1.9gph 2gph
GPH @ 3000 rpm 4gph 4 gph 4.8gph 4.8gph
GPH @ 3600 rpm 6gph 6.5 gph 7gph 8 gph

Power@3000 rpm 138 mhp 150 mhp 150 mhp 155 mhp
Tork1800 rpms 230 nm 340 nm 230 nm 410 nm
HP at prop ??? 156 hp ??? 182 hp


Data from Manufacturers Charts
[/list]

Well this is what I see:

The way we us our 22 cruiser is usually at speeds between 14 and 18 knots to get to fishing areas. In the bay we deal with wakes all the time which slows us down and on the ocean we feel good if we can make the crossing at 16 knots and really good if we can do it faster. Cruising we follow the pattern of most everybody else and seldom get above 10 knots. We seem to average 3.5 gallons per hour no matter what we are doing.

We would be happy if the CR 25 could get 15 knots economically and without stressing the engine and more if needed. The CR 25 would give us the room and comfort we are looking for with a nice fishing platform in the back and still be able to trailer it.

So the question is how to power the boat so this can be achieved. The 4 engines above certainly have the potential.

1. They all would cruise economically at 2000 RPMs
2. The 180 and 190 HP versions don't seem to have their power advantage until they are approaching their continous RPMs of 3600.
3. I believe that at 3000 RPMs there is little advantage from the larger motors since the horse power is about the same except for the Yanmar 150which is less.
4. At 3000 RPMs the 150/160 engines run more economically than the 180/190s.
5. The question is can these engines move the boat onto plane and travel at least 15 knots at 3000 RPMs.
6. I believe the Volvo Penta 160 has the best chance of doing this economically. It has a tremendous tork advantage at less than 2000 RPMs to better get on plane and its horse power ratings at 3000 RPMs are quite a bit higher than the Yanmar. So it should be able to turn a bigger prop at those RPMs.
7. The factory rated fuel consumption is the same for both at 3000 RPMs

If the factory fuel consumption tables are close to the real world the boat should be able to achieve 18 knots for 6 GPH which is about what the 25 cruiser is using with both the twin 90s and the 150.

Now, not being a professional, I may be in the ozone some where and if I am, I wish someone will tell me nicely and help me make this decision with a more accurate assessment of the available data.

Have a great evening!

dtol

[Vikingbaat]

Les:

1. If one opts for the Yanmar 110HP engine, what kind of performance can one expect?
2. If the factory offers the Volvo 160HP engine as an option, can you offer a guess as to the cost for the Volvo upgrade?

R-25 on order