Heaters and Stoves

[colvosview]

Hi friends
Does anyone have any opinions pro or con about the surface mount two burner Wallas heater/stove? It looks like it would sure be an easy installation, and wouldn't interfere with the storage space under counter. Plus, if I mounted it port to starboard, I could vent it through the bulkhead and not have to worry about a hole through the gel coat. What do you think?

[Wheeler Dealer]

Sea Wolf,

Thanks for the heater tips . I will look up the Road Pro electric you mentioned as I think this is more what I can use. Our 16' Angler is not a sealed cockpit. We have the straight drop canvas behind the seats. I don't think it will take much to keep us un-fogged and warm as the bow storage area is pretty well sealed off from the cabin and the body heat of two people can about warm this small area up. Fogging up is the biggest problem and if I can solve this and get a little heat too, we will happy boaters.

I'm not much of an electrician,(as it sounds like your are) If the Road Pro fits the bill, can I wire it direct to an auxiliary buss on the main panel? I didn't get the ciggarette lighter option .

Thanks again, I hope other 16'ers chime in on this.

[Sea Wolf]

Wheeler Dealer, Rock-C, and colvosview: Yes, you can wire the combo heater directly into an unused circuit or open circuit in your main buss.

Two caveats though: 1. Be sure to include about a 20 amp fuse in the circuit for general fire protection in case of a major short in the heater, and, 2. It would be smart to route the current through a lighted switch on the dash panel placed in a position where it can be seen from around the boat, including the berth area. This way you know when the circuit is active, even though you have a switch on the heater itself.

I'm thinking that the heater could be accidently turned on by a shift in baggage, sleeping gear, kids, a sleeping person, or a pet, and then be in a position to overheat bedding or something and lead to a fire. You'll have to judge this possibility when you decide where and how to mount it, but I personally like lighted switches in all my circuits that could be dangerous, and definitely want fuses in any and all circuits.

The heater may well have its own in line fuse, but its probably inside the adaptor plug that you'll have to remove in order to wire the heater in, unless you choose alternative #3., which is to wire in a lighter/accessory plug into your buss, locating the plug at a convenient location near the v-berth and helm, then plugging the heater into it. This plug should also incorporate a fuse and a switch for safety's sake. You can also plug a lot of other electrical things in here, such as a fan, vacuum cleaner, portable GPS, etc. If it were me, I'd choose Door Number Three!

So what I'd do is run a red (positive) hot wire from the buss to a fuse holder (in line or better yet mounted in the dash) to the switch, then to the adaptor center terminal (hot). Then run a black (negative) wire from the outer adaptor (ground) terminal to the ground buss terminal.

If your boat is quite new, the negative wires will be yellow instead of black. (This keeps people with shore power (110 volts AC) from cutting into a black 110 volt hot wire which would otherwise be the same color as the 12 volt negative ground in the 12 volt system.)

You can probably buy a combination adaptor plug, switch, and fuse holder which will simplify the installation and make for a neat appearing installation. Make sure to scale up the fuse to the 20 amp size for the surges encountered in the 13 amp heater circuit.


Here's another thought: If you're worried about running the battery down, here are two alternatives:

A. Carry an emergency jumper/starter pack on board the boat in case you take it down too far, or

B. If you're only doing single over night trips, get a deep cycle RV battery and run the heater off it instead. The 13 amp pull will take 13 amp-hours off the battery every hour of operation, and with a 90 amp-hour battery, you could run it for up to say, 5 hours (5 x 13= 65 amp-hours) and only be discharging the battery 72% of its amp-hour capacity, then take it home and connect it to a battery charger and get it ready for the next trip. You can actually run the battery down further, but the further you go, the less number of times you'll be able to recharge it.

You can also take the charger along and connect the charger and battery to a shore power outlet and recharge at the dock during the day, with weather protection for the electrical components (say a suitably large covered plastic storage box, ventilated with some holes to let out the charging gases, which can be explosive, if confined.)

Of course, if you stay overnight at a marina or dock that has shore power, the very best solution is simply to use an electric 110 volt AC heater. When I'm in my marina on Shasta Lake, I never use my propane heater, but instead use a low-profile electric heater (so it can't be turned over, even though it has an internal gravity activated switch to turn it off if it's upset).

I use a 30 amp shore power connector/adapator which allows me to use a 14-gauge three wire utility cord (rated at 15 amps at 110 volts or 1650 watts), which is brought aboard the boat and connected to a GFI (ground fault interrupted) buss bar (like the ones you use on your computer, only with the GFI feature).

This has surge and overload protection, pus with the GFI Circuit, will disconnect if any power is used in the boat that doesn't return out the neutral wire (e.g., a short into the boat's 12 volt system and/or the water). This is a major safety element and advantaage over a regular buss bar.

This works great in protected and relatively dry situations, but I wouldn't personally recommend it around very wet and especially wet salt water situations. From a cost perspective, it's very inexpensive, and very clean and efficient dry heat.

Too bad there isn't a really safe and small propane or diesel/kerosene heater available for this size boat. All the forced air, closed combustion, and ventilated diesel/kerosene systems are big, complicated, and priced in the $1000-$2000 range. Even the propane and diesel convection ones run $400-$600, and are still pretty big for a boat in which space is tight.

I've been trying to figure out how to adapt one of the catalytic heaters mentioned earlier to an enclosed container with an outside air supply, exhaust vents, infa-red transmitting glass doors, and fans, but the tinkering is still in the early stages! The trick is to wind up with a safe efficient heater tht's explosion proof. This would have to lead to a do-it-yourself project design, as manufacturing such a device would require liability insurance that would be unafforadable, except for an established company, etc.

Hope this is useful, entertaining, or otherwise positive in its conveyance. Joe.

[Sea Wolf]

Colvosview-
"Does anyone have any opinions pro or con about the surface mount two burner Wallas heater/stove?"

Are you talking about the same Wallas that is the standard factory option? This is about $1600 or $1700 factory installed, and a very suitable unit for the CD-22 Cruiser.

It's mounted fore and aft in the Cruiser. With the smaller cabin of the Angler, you might be able to use the Wallas 800 which also has a heating lid for cooking, though it's a single burner and has a smaller btu output. Fishwisher (Dale), who you can contact through the C-Dogs Group has successfully mounted this unit in his CD-22 Angler. On his personal website, there are pictures of the installation. Go to the C-Dog website and find the Member's Links connection (link).

Mounting the two burner job athwartships might be necessary in the Angler due to space requirements. The factory probably vents the exhaust over the side because of safety issues (burns), but it could be exhausted out the rear cabin bulkhead with an appropriate guard around it, unless you can imagine gas fumes in the cockpit area coming into contact with the hot vent in the event of a gasoline leak (!)

If you install one of the Wallas units, read the latest archived posts regarding the correct fuel to use as it seems to be a critical issue.

Hoe this helps get you on the right track! Joe.

[AK Angler]

WD-

I bought a 16' Angler last fall just as the ice was forming, so I don't have any helm time as of yet. However, one thing I know is that if I want to get my wife out on the water for any length of time, I'm definitely going to have to put in some kind of heater.

But, as you know, most heaters are either too big (physically), or too small (output), or too expensive, to go in the little boat.

I had been thinking about installing a small catalytic propane or CNG system. I figured that this would provide enough heat to warm the small cabin and also allow cooking in the cockpit with one of the many gas grills available. Also, it could be run for extended periods of time while the engine was off without concern of running the battery(s) down.

These systems are not without problems, though. Since propane is heavier than air, I am somewhat concerned with how to vent any stray vapors. And, while CNG will float off, it can be hard to come by. Also, as mentioned in other posts, any open burning (even catalytic) can be dangerous in close proximity to gasoline vapors, as well as cause moisture to build up in the cabin.

It really is a complex problem in a boat this small.

I was wondering though , if there was a way to tap into the cooling system and scavenge the "waste" heat from the outboard. Seems like a guy could use a heater like this one to easily heat such a small cabin. Just run the ducts to wherever you want heat, including a fogged windshield. And the demand for electricity would be pretty small too; just a small fan to run.

But, the engine would have to be running for the system to work. And since they're made to circulate the coolant from a closed system, I don't know how they would hold up to circulating seawater. And I don't know if it's even possible to tap into the cooling system on an outboard. Maybe someone makes something like this that would work. I don't know. My search continues...

One thing I do know though, is that this forum is probably one of the best on the 'net for providing quality input. I'm sure if we all put our heads together, we could figure it out.

[colvosview]

Thanks Joe of Sea Wolf
I think the most common factory-installed Wallas is the flush mount, not the surface mount. The surface mount just sits on top of a flat surface, rather that down into the countertop. I'd guess it's probably the same unit put into a housing, but I'm just wondering if there are issues I'm not considering other than the one you mention about the vent.

[Sea Wolf]

Rod- Good information and discussion!

The more one seems to get into this heater issue, the deeper the complications get, and the the more minder the boggler becomes. But precisely because it's so complex to seemingly defy simple solution, it lures one back to reconsider the problem, over and over.

There are times when I come back to the conclusion that a giant kerosene lantern vented to the outside would make a great little heater/fireplace with a lot of ambiance and be almost foolproof in operation. (!) Would look very nautical with its polished brass, glass outer body, and chimney, etc.

For anyone considering any of the different propane or kerosene convection heaters or the more complex forced air mini-furnaces, I think it is wise to put the name of the unit into a good search engine and read all the discussions that have been written about the particular unit on websites like this, but for other boats. There's a lot of info here atout the Wallas, but the Espar, Webasto, Toyoset and other units are enigmas if you don't look around elsewhere. There's also good info out there on the Force 10 and Dickinson units as well. The info covers both installation and operation issues, and covers problems that can't always be anticipated, and their practical solution.

There's also a Platinum Cat heater that's very interesting. It's a catalytic propane unit that has fan powered exhaust overboard vent. It's wall mounted, and comes in a 3000 and a (approx) 5500 btu size. It's currently out of production, but a fellow named Arnie up in Washington state (near Olympia) services the existing models and can fabricate a virtually "new" one out of parts for about $439. It's thermostatically controlled, using 12 v power to heat the starting grid and power the thermostat. Try putting "Platinum Cat" into a search engine. Might just mount in the side of one of the dinette seats or under the helm seat in place of the ice box, on the CD-22, for instance. It would have to be placed where the radiant heat produced would have some where to radiate (nothing too close in front).
Requires an external tank, of course.

Meanwhile, keep thinking of the alternatives without succumbing to the black hole of despair!

Fun talking to you! Joe.

[Wheeler Dealer]

Sea Wolf Joe,

WOW! You have given an incredible accounting of the small heater universe. I feel like we either owe you money for the service call or you owe us college credit for learning heater 101, 2 & 3. I'm sure I can guess which you prefer .

I found another small heater/fan called the Vector Coleman 12V Car Heater WW-2022F. This is a 200 watt halogen heater which appears to be a bit more efficient than the mini Roadpro 12V, but is still quite compact for mounting in a small cabin. Have you seen or heard any feedback on this one?

We will hook up someday, just remind me I owe you a or for your contribution to this thread. Jon

[Sea Wolf]

Jon and Terrie-

No, I haven't heard anything about the Coleman electric heater model you mentioned, but I looked it up on the net and it looks like a good unit to me. Let me know how it works out! Glad to be of further help if you need anything. Joe.

[Les Lampman]

I'll add what I can here...

The Wallas 2-burner unit can be mounted in any direction; however, keep in mind the lid has a blower in it and the warm air will always blow out the 'front' of the unit. If that's facing forward in the boat right at the back of a helm seat or such you're not going to get as much warm air into the rest of the boat as you would with the unit facing the passageway.

Any blue flame heater (propane in this case) that is not vented outside will add a lot of water vapor in the cabin; this includes the catalytic models.

Any heater relying on combustion is going to consume oxygen from the cabin space unless it's a driect vent unit...plan accordingly.

I've run our Wallas stoves on Ace hardware puchased kerosene (Kleen Strip I believe) for quite some time now and I've had no (zero, nada) issues with it. I've also run straight diesel fuel when I ran out of kerosene and again I had no trouble at all.

The Wallas does want a good power supply; it starts to act strangely when the batteries are down (even if they'll still start the motor). As soon as the power is switched to a fresh battery it works just fine. I suspect the main electronic board is not happy with even slightly low voltage.

[B~C]

anybody, would a Wallas 800 single burner unit do an acceptable job of warming up a 22' cruiser?

[TyBoo]

B~C -

Better talk to my old buddy Fishwisher about the Wallas 800.

[TyBoo]

I think Fred had the single Wallas job on Little Buddy. He never had any complaints. We'll be hearing from him soon.

B~C, maybe what you need to do is start charging a small fee for the smelt. You could have bought a four burner Wallas if I had paid you a buck a dozen for what you gave me last year. Of course, when the WA and OR boys find out you're selling them, via an anonymous tip from a disgruntled customer who can't catch no sturgeon, well, you might have to sell the stove and the boat to pay the fine.

[B~C]

worse than the fine, I'd probably lose my job.....I KNOW, I need to find a stove that burns smelt

[Sawdust]

The single burner on Little Buddy does a great job. Heats the entire cabin area plus camper back area to a comfortable temp. Even our famous senior nerd spent a couple of nights aboard and said it was fine. Of course, he made sure he had plenty of anti freeze in his system --- just in case. It does like a fully charged battery... but when we plugged in the dock power cord all was great.

Dusty