Do I Need Trailer Brakes?

[journey on]

OK, enough. Colbysmith keeps recommending all electric brakes, but he lives in Madison, Wisconsen. And apparently never launches in salt water. I wish he would try that just once.

Now I have all electric drum brakes on the travel trailer and they're wonderful. The consist of an iron magnet, exposed electric wires and a bar which rubs against the magnet when energized and forces the shoes to the drum. Excellent system if you never dunk them in the water. Per Colbysmith, excellent even if you dunk them in fresh water. I don't know but those components are really susceptible to corrosion..

However, the obvious shortcomings of putting electric connections and components in salt water leads to disaster, and that I do know. The effect on drums and disks in salt water is common knowledge. Also, I assume the effects of salt on electrics is common knowledge also.

So if you launch in salt water and want brakes, please use surge hydraulic or electric/hydraulic brakes.

I hauled a 22' sailboat with no brakes using a 1/2 ton PU and that worked well. The truck was heavy and the boat lighter than a C-Dory 22.

Boris

[mangobob]

thataway's response sent me off to the internet for quite some time to discover that a charitable description of the Toyota FJ's brakes is that they are "quite bad," at least in comparison with the Ford Mustang. I understand that they're two completely different vehicles, but the differences were arresting in one test: 0-60 mph stop in Mustang in 104' and 138' in Toyota FJ. I've had my FJ for two years and never had a panic stop, but I do agree that while it's great off road, and it really is, it's not a smooth or particularly wonderful highway vehicle, partly because of its relatively high center of gravity. I now plan to look into colbysmith's recommendation for all electric brakes. As he points out, it can't hurt. I've had electric brakes on previous vehicles with good success, and the in-cab controller is certainly reassuring in the mountains.

[T.R. Bauer]

I can't believe we just compared Mustang GT brakes to an FJ's....It is no surprise that a 400 plus hp car capable of 150 mph has better brakes. Yep, it sure does. I have one - it is like a rocket ship with Brembo brakes to boot. It really stops. I too offered you wouldn't regret getting brakes. Is there a real need? I don't think so, but putting them on won't hurt at all. And if you sleep better at night, that is worth something.

BTW, even with trailer brakes you won't stop nearly as well as the Mustang GT......ever......And this might come to a surprise to folks too; you won't go 0-60 in less than 5 seconds. Or run the quarter in less than 13 seconds....LOL....And it aint worth beans off road.....come on guys

[Sunbeam]

[AK Angler]

As someone that has actually towed a 16-foot C-Dory Angler (both heavily and lightly loaded), as well as a heavier (and even more heavily loaded) 17-foot Arima Sea Ranger with a short-wheelbase vehicle, I'm going to chime in...

I'm not going to address the legal requirements for two reasons. First, I don't know the trailering laws in the jurisdictions in question. And second, it has already been pointed out that brakes may be a legal requirement along some parts of the journey, and whether or not one decides to break a traffic law is none of my business.

What I am going to address is the actual need for trailer brakes when towing a 16-footer on a short wheelbase vehicle. As a comparison, the experience upon which I am drawing is with the use of a 1997 Jeep TJ (Wrangler) as a tow rig, logging several thousand miles in both summer and winter, over seven or eight years while the towed weight progressively increased. The wheelbase of that Jeep is shorter than that of the FJ at just over 93 inches, and the factory towing capacity rating is significantly less at only 2000#.

That said, I easily towed my 16-footer with the Jeep, and without the benefit (or added complexity) of trailer brakes. In the end, the boat was fairly heavy due to the addition of modifications such as twin 24-gallon fuel tanks, but I don't remember ever weighing it. When I sold the Angler and bought the Arima, I also towed it without trailer brakes (albeit for only a short time). However, the loaded Arima was quite a bit heavier than the C-Dory, and the additional weight was very noticeable under tow - especially while braking. Adding electric drum trailer brakes with a good Tekonsha P3 brake controller brought the braking back into my comfort zone.

After having towed the Arima for a couple of years, I had it weighed. The complete towed load, stocked for a weekend trip, scaled in at a hefty 3600 pounds on the trailer. Shortly after that, I made the decision to get a bigger tow rig. But, that decision wasn't made because I was having issues towing... Rather, it was because the Jeep had 230k miles on the odometer and was beginning to show its age, as well as a desire to eventually upgrade to a larger boat (which I would most certainly not be able to tow with the Jeep).

After selling the Jeep and buying a 2003 Ford F-250, I still used the trailer brakes I had installed previously. Although, there was one full summer that I knew they weren't operating, but I didn't have the time or inclination to properly fix them, so I just did without. Even without its trailer brakes operational, I felt no discernible difference when using the much longer wheelbase Ford to tow the now heavier Arima that I estimate to be upwards of 4000 pounds (I had since added a pair of long-range fuel tanks and other goodies). If I were still using the Jeep, I would have been forced to park the boat until I could get the brakes fixed.

Finally, I bought a 26-foot Cape Cruiser which I estimate to be about 8000# of towed weight when loaded for a weekend trip. The trailer for this boat is brand new, and has factory installed surge brakes. Towing with the Ford, I can most certainly feel the trailer pushing the truck when I start braking, at which point the surge brakes are activated and the trailer begins to use its own brakes to slow down. To me, this surge forward is very disconcerting. It feels very unstable, even in the much heavier, and much longer wheelbase truck. I can foresee this being a real safety issue when towing in snowy/icy winter conditions. So, I will be removing the surge system and replacing it with an electric over hydraulic system before winter.

I bring this up for the following reason... As someone that has experience towing with a short wheelbase vehicle, there is absolutely no way I would recommend surge brakes for that setup. I would rather have no brakes at all than be pushed around by unstable and unpredictable activation of surge brakes.

Honestly, I don't think trailer brakes are even necessary when towing a 16-foot C-Dory with a short wheelbase vehicle. However, I do see how they could be beneficial if one were to choose to use them. But, there really is no need for an expensive electric over hydraulic brake system, and I wholeheartedly recommend against using surge brakes. I believe that (even with the noted possibility of increased maintenance) standard electric brakes - and a good brake controller - would be the best fit for this type of setup.

That's my two cents. Do with it what you will.

[colbysmith]

There is no doubt in my mind that Boris has a problem with all electric. However, I believe any engineer will tell you that hydraulic brake fluid and water does not get along. (Salt or fresh.) Salt water will no more bother good electric brakes, than any other corrosive metal dunk in it. So unless you are going to go stainless, you are going to find it doesn't matter rather you go electric or surge in salt water. The salt is going to rust/corrode the brake materials over time. The brake and drum parts on the axle are otherwise pretty much the same between electric or surge! Electric has the electro magnet and surge has the hydraulic piston) (As for the electricity, it's no different than the tail lights you already dunk in the water. Just unplug your pig tail! The electro-magnet on electric brakes is somewhat sealed as for the electrical portion of it!) As for brake control running down the road, you will have a lot better brake control with electric opposed to surge! Now, if you got lots of money and want stainless, then go electric over hydraulic! Colby

[Sunbeam]

[Da Nag]

[colobear]

We have led lights and surge brakes. We never unplug but have added sealant to the lights and any connections to try and reduce saltwater intrusion. No problems thus far. I don't particularly like surge brakes. On our travel trailer we had electric over hydraulic and to me they were significantly better than the surge brakes. The main benefits were the ability to engage them from inside the vehicle when I chose to and the fact that they would automatically engage with the amount of braking force I set through the brake controller. I pulled that trailer over many icy roads and mountain passes. Engaging the brakes on the trailer before those on the truck allowed me to prevent jack-knifing the trailer and reduce skid issues when on slippery surfaces. I came down a very steep long grade covered in ice pulling the trailer with a 2wheel drive truck. We made it down safely but at the bottom I had to stop to cool the trailer brakes, a small price to pay.

[colbysmith]

Hi Sunbeam. What I was getting at, is, your boat trailer has electrical wires running usually along it's frame, regardless of how high you place your lights, and that frame is submerged. The electro-magnet, while metal itself, has it's wires sealed, just as an LED light does. However, somewhere along the wiring, in most cases, there will be a connection that very likely is not sealed. (Actually, on my trailer, any rewiring I have done has been with the more expensive connectors that seal tight with heat. Yet there are still areas where connections are made, such as the ground wire screwed to the trailer frame, that are not protected.) I have always unplugged my boat trailer pigtails when backing into water, but that's more to keep my system from shorting out and blowing a fuse. However, I have more than once forgot to unplug the pigtail, and have yet to blow a fuse...so maybe ancestry worship.... (Actually, on a really steep ramp, probably better to leave the pigtail plugged in, as electric brakes work in reverse too!) Honestly I question anyone's knowledge about electric trailer brakes that feel they are inferior to any standard surge system. While I don't live on the right or left coast and my trailer is a "freshwater" trailer, I suspect most salt water sailors badmouthing electric brakes, have no personal experience with them. The rust and corrosion of salt water has nothing to do with electric vs. surge, but rather the metals involved and perhaps a lack of maintenance. Unfortunately, most standard electric brake systems use standard iron or metal. (But so do surge or hydraulic!) However, I am reading lately about improved electric systems using more stainless, but that also drives up cost. In the end, if one can afford Stainless, that will be the best system for use in Salt Water. As more electric systems are available with Stainless, I believe you will find an all electric system will continue to be superior to hydraulic, or even electric over hydraulic. Colby

[AK Angler]

[thataway]

There is a great advantage of a brake system, which can be controlled form the tow vehicle, and independent of the tow vehicle. Many of the C Brats own travel trailers, so they do understand the advantages of this breaking system. There is no argument that there are better systems than the surge brakes, but the argument is a system which fails (electro-magnetic brakes) due to salt water corrosion--and you are left with no brakes. I came on a jackknifed pickup with a small travel trailer on its side blocking the AlCan highway--on my only trip up there. The driver told me that he had to stop suddenly for wildlife--and the electric/magnetic brakes on his trailer did not activate.

British Columbia does not allow surge brakes on trailers with weight greater than 6,160 Ibs. Most go with electric over hydraulic--why not electro-magnetic?-- too much chance for failure when used in the salt water environment.

The bad rap of electric brakes is due to a lot of experience with folks using them in salt water, and the iron core rusting out.

Here is a quote about magnetic electric brakes on boat trailers, from one of the large internet after market trailer dealers:

[JamesTXSD]

Well, I don't have a dog in this fight, but I do have experience with surge brakes, electric brakes, and electric over hydraulic. Towing our CD-25, we find that electric over hydraulic is a great solution. The actuator is located forward and up on the trailer and isn't exposed to salt water immersion. I am not familiar with any boat trailer manufacturer who recommends strictly electric brakes... especially with trailers that are made for salt water use. On a trailer we had for a previous sailboat, the trailer manufacturer flat stated that electric brakes were not an option and not recommended for boat trailers; surge brakes or electric over hydraulic only.

The surge brakes are fine if you are towing on mostly level terrain. Go down a long, steep decline, and you may burn up the brakes because the surge will constantly be activated by the compression braking on the tow vehicle. Many of us with the surge brakes have also had issues with the solenoid not releasing when you put the tow vehicle into reverse, and the brakes locking when you try to back the trailer. This was a regular source of irritation with our experience. Less of an issue with a light weight boat. The switch to electric over hydraulic eliminates that problem. AND the problem with the brakes overheating on downhill situations. With a proper tow vehicle, trailer sway is less of an issue, but there is no way to engage surge brakes without slowing your tow vehicle - with the electric over hydraulic, reach down to the controller and you can engage just the trailer brakes... with the same gradual engagement that you have with your tow vehicle.

We have electric brakes on our HitchHiker 5th wheel. While fine on a land based tow, there is still the jerk when the electrics engage. No amount of adjusting on the controller in the truck makes it smooth with every situation - and it changes if you are moving slow or fast. I would absolutely prefer the electric over hydraulic with that heavier load.

A free opinion, based on experience with each. No 2¢ requested.

Jim

[colbysmith]

Bob, I have to respectfully disagree with your comments on electric brake components. Specifically where you say: "The surge disc brakes and electric drum brakes are considerably different in construction and materials.". To my knowledge, the materials used in standard drum brakes are the same rather they are electric or hydraulic. The difference lies in one using a hydraulic cylinder, the other an electro-magnet. I believe the brake shoes, drums and springs are all the same material. The electromagnets I get with my Dexter kits are partially encased in epoxy. Moisture can find it's way into any hydraulic cylinder or system that has bad seals or other leaks. There are a lot of hydraulic surge systems out there that do not work. Lack of maintenance, corrosion, what have you. With any system, some maintenance is going to be required. This is especially true in salt or brackish waters. Looking over many different forums about boat trailer brakes and salt water, it sounds like any system has a short lifespan, that gets shorter without a routine fresh water rinse! Speaking with fresh water experience, I'll stand by my all electric over any other system. It's also going to be the safest on the road, if maintained properly.

[thataway]

Colby, read what I wrote: