new boat soon...

[Luna C]

We are jumping in with you all! We have been very impressed with this site, as well as with the boat itself! We would have never even looked at the C-Dory if had not been for Jeff, the new guy down in Kent. He has allot of boat sales experience and just moved over to C-Dory just in time for the Seattle boat Show. He is setting us up with a 22 cruiser.

We are including the Wallace stove, high top, over head rails, trim tabs, opening front center window, & anchor deck pipe. How big of deal is hydraulic steering for the Puget Sound? What else is a must?

I have read most everything on this site, and the C-Dog site, on the "single vs twins" question. You all have been NO HELP! I am still 50/50 on a 90 vs twin 40's or 50's. I will be running year round to the San Juans, packing 2000+ pounds on occasion. I must decide within a few weeks. Any strong feelings would be appreciated. If not, we'll flip a coin and be happy either way!

Thanks.

*We have enjoyed being a part of your group since the boat show - and we don't even have a boat yet! DeNag, you do this just for fun and our benefit?!?!

[Alyssa Jean]

Chris and Janet, Welcome to the world of C-Dory. Your questioning the choice between twin engines or a single, with I assume a kicker, is certainly a topic that has been discussed quite a bit on the site. Here are my two cents worth on the question. I also spend almost all my time in the San Juans out of Guemes Island. With currents sometimes running at 8 knots plus is some channels I would much rather be relying on my 40 HP "extra" engine than a small kicker. I don't fish (yet) so the trolling speed is not important. Yes there is a little more cost in maintanence but a lot more piece of mind when I am out there in the Straits of Georgia or Rosaio etc. As far as the 40 vs. the 50. There was a thread just in the last couple of weeks in which I think Les at EQ Marine answered some questions and gave answers to the difference in power curves, torque, HP etc. You might look for that if you haven't already read it.

I also have the Wallas and would not be without it in the NW. Last week-end I spent the night up at Stewart Is. Kept it running on low all night, compfy and warm. Used maybe a quart of fuel. Trim tabs I had installed after having the boat for about 6 months and would not be without them now.

Having an anchor windlass installed this week. I do not have hydraulic steering. Have not piloted one with it so can't give you any insight into the difference. From what I have read one difference, other than the cost, might be in steering with one finger instead of with one hand. One finger would be easier I am sure but my other four fingers are there anyway so might as well make use of them at the same time. Besides I saved the money and was able to get the windlass.

There are about a thousand ways you can spend money on a boat. I now think in boat units ($1000= 1 boat unit) when I am thinking of new things to buy. Trim tabs, about 3/4 of a boat unit, Full camper for the cockpit, 3/4 of a boat unit. Anchor windlass 3/4 of a boat unit. MMMM I think I see a trend here.

Keep us posted and hope to see you in the beautiful San Juans this summer. Honk when you go by Cooks Cove on Guemes and I may come out and join you for a cruise.

[Les Lampman]

Hello Chris and Janet,

Since I'm usually the one telling people that either setup (single or twins) makes a wonderful boat and to just install what 'speaks' to you I'll play devil's advocate today and let you develop the arguments.

I suggest if you're really on the fence; go with a single main engine and a kicker motor. Why?

1) In the long run simpler is always better and less expensive.

2) It's less expensive up front to go that way; rigging for the twin engine setup is much more expensive with two of all the gauges, the key switches, the remote controller, the control cables, the props, the tiebar, etc. With a single/kicker there's much less complexitiy since the kicker doesn't get all that rigging paraphenalia. With the single main you have a simpler dash layout and just one lever to mess with when manuevering.

3) Reliability is a non-issue; you're as likely to see a broken down four-stroke motor (of any make) as you are a new car. Usually it's a flat tire that puts a new car on the side of the road; for us it's a whacked prop.

4) If you're going to hit something (and that's the reason most boats get stopped) you're better off with a single and kicker; with twins on 24" centers the likelihood is that if you hit one prop you'll hit both; in fact, that close together, one twin usually throws the debris into the other. With a single/kicker the main engine's prop may get whacked but the kicker is safe and sound tipped out of the water.

5) With a single/kicker you can have a swim step and ladder on the transom. Very nice for getting in and out of dinghies, getting out of the water if you find yourself there by mistake (or on purpose if you dive), very nice for changing the prop on the main engine if you need to.

6) If you or anybody that's going to be routinely aboad is 'pitch sensitive' (in a musical sense) twins are going to drive them nuts unless you keep them synchronized. I've come close to grabbing the throttles my self (with someone else at the helm) on a few boats when the 'thrum' of unsynched motors litterally had me clenching my teeth.

7) There's a lot of controls to mess with on the twin setup...two key switches, two trim switches, two control levers, two trim tab rockers; getting the boat trimmed out takes more effort that a single engine does.

8 ) Big engines last longer than little engines. That is, there is higher potential to put more hours on a 75/90 than there is to put hours on a 40/50. I'd be the first to admit that doesn't usually come into play for most of us but if you're going to get a lot of hours on your engines the Honda BF75 will outlast the BF40's by about 50%.

9) The electrical system on the twins is more complex and takes more operator intervention. The alternators on the twins can not be paralleled or you run the risk of 'backfeeding' into one of them and literally burning the charging coils. That means knowing what you're doing with the battery switch. This is much easier with a single engine. The single can charge a single battery better then the twins can charge two batteries (since their output can't be combined).

10) If you're in the San Juans and you have an anchor, a VHF, and a Vessel Assist card you're good to go if you're really in for a bad time. The image of fighting your way home on an 8-hp kicker is a bit overwrought. The 8-hp kicker will push the CD22 along at hull speed (about 5 knots) and you'll be traveling just like every sailboat out there. Yeah it's slower than you usually go...what's your point? My dad brought a heavy 26' power boat back from Barkley Sound (on the west coast of Vancouver Island) to Whidbey Island on a Honda BF100 (which is the BF8; the old motor was rated for horsepower at the flywheel)...best mileage he ever got with that boat for sure! And that boat easily wieghed twice what a CD22 does.

When you're selecting options plan for the future. For instance, we don't deliver CD22's without hydraulic steering. I know that the maintenenace on the hydraulic steering is significantly less and easier than cable steering. With cable steering I will see you in a few years to replace the steering cable and probably sooner to free it up after it sits over a winter. If you use your boat a lot you're probably going to get interested in an autopilot; the prices have plummeted and they're a handy item to have aboard (the seagoing equivalent of cruise control!). Adding that to a boat with hydraulic steering is relatively easy and a much better system than is available with mechanical steering. Steering effort is not the big thing; the mechanical steering isn't so bad. I have noticed though that more of the crew volunteers to steer with hydarulic steering versus mechanical (it is nicer); at least until the autopilot gets installed.

Get the trim tabs...they make a world of difference.

Get the electric wipers on both windows; otherwise you look like you're filming an exercise video...up, down, up, down...you can't reach the port wiper from the helm seat. And since most folks mount thier main nav screen in front of the helm (usually something like a Garmin 188C, a Raymarine RL70CRC, or a Furno 1722) it sometimes isn't easy to reach the starboard manual wiper either.

If you want the cat's meow get the Camper Canvas. It's like getting suite at the hotel instead of just a room. All of a sudden you have a protected space to come in out of the rain or wind (or both) and get the wet gear off before going into the nice dry cabin. You'll have more room to store stuff with weather protection in the cockpit (who doesn't need more space?) and you'll have a place at night for the portable head to live (and get used). Besides that, at a C-Dory get together the boats with camper canvas are the most popular! Gives you a nice lounge space.

I'm out of time...unless this 'flips the coin' for you I can do the next message with all the reasons I think you should get twins!!!

[Sea Wolf]

Les- Another great discussion, making a number of points I've never heard before! Kind of reads like a "landmark" decision from the Supreme Court.

To be fair, we'll have to ask you to do the same for the other side of the issue, at your leisure, of course!

I'm going to take the liberty of copying the text over to the previous discussion of "Help on 22 Cruiser Motor Selection" thread in the Library, as it will be found more easily there by those researching the topic in the future.

Thanks for your insight and honesty. I'm looking forward to meeting you at Shasta Lake next October on the Shasta Lake Cruise. Joe.

[Lil Rascal]

I am new at this boat stuff, but if you plan on installing a windlass, you do not need the anchor deck pipe option. Correct me if I am wrong.

Scott

[Alyssa Jean]

Scotty, the answer is no. The anchor deck pipe as installed by the factory is on the starboard side forward of the deck cleat. When installing a windlass the windlass is installed at the center line of the boat forward of the cleat. The rode comes straight back from the bow, wraps around the windlass and straight down into the anchor locker. I have the anchor deck pipe and will just leave it there.

[TyBoo]

Hi Chris and Janet, and welcome to our little place here. It is neat to see such enthusiasm for a boat you had not even considered a couple months ago. You will not be disappointed, nor will you lose the excitement. If fact, it will probably get worse. You're not even hooked, yet, but you're gonna be!

Thanks also for your comments about this site. We don't call it the Pub for nothin', ya know. And as good as it is, it just got better when you "jumped in with us all".

I see you have found plenty of comment on your questions. There isn't much for me to add except one comment to further confuse your motor choice.

We are on our second C-Dory, and both of them came to us with a single main and kicker. The boats were used, but both had new Hondas on them when they found us. I have never had a problem running all over with the single, and I am not concerned about continuing to do so. I like the single main engine a whole bunch. However, and I don't know why, if I were to buy a new C-Dory it would have twins. Go figure!

Again, welcome aboard. Please keep us posted on all the goings on with your new boat. And let us know when you're ready for a photo album to start showing it off. If you want to post pics before you decide on a boat name, we'll get you started and rename the album properly when you figure it out.

Have fun!

[Les Lampman]

It's me again .

I'm not sure I have quite as much time this morning to type as much as I did on the Single Engine Cause! Aren't you glad!

First, to Scotty who asked about the Anchor Deck Pipe and windlass. You are correct; you do not need to order the Anchor Deck Pipe option if you're installing the windlass. Dave's answer threw me a little but I think he was saying that if you already have a boat with the Anchor Deck Pipe you can still add a windlass.

So why in the world would you want twins?

1) The number one reason has to be the "cool" factor; hardly anything looks better that a pair of engines hanging on the stern. Too many folks discount this as being 'silly' and try and justify it on a 'technical' basis; but if looks don't count what attracted you to the C-Dory? Or your car? Or whatever; you get the idea.

2) IF you're going to lose an engine and IF you're a long way from help (and some C-Dory's do go to some very remote areas) being able to get to help at a higher speed (say 8 knots rather than 5) while sitting at the helm and operating the boat as you usually do would be nice (you have visibility, you have your instrumentation and electronics, you're warm, and you have steering and shift controls at hand). So, my general rule is that the need for twins (from a backup standpoint) is proportional to the distance from help. Losing a main engine is still not a high probability BUT it can happen and the farther out in never-never land you are the more comforting it would be to have that backup.

Keep in mind however, that the two main reasons for not having motive power are that you hit something (and with twins very likely damaged both props) or you have a fuel contamination problem (that will most likely affect both engines since installing a truly redundant fuel system on a CD22 is a bit of a space challenge and overkill for most). If you're travelling afar you should be prepared to change props and filters on your own (and a small reserve of quality fuel wouldn't be bad in truly out-of-the-way places).

3) Twins make you 'feel' good...and don't pooh-pooh this either. Happiness is being comfortable and you're not comfortable if you're scared or worried. So if having twins on the back raises the comfort level and your sense of security that's a darn good reason to have them; sure makes boating a lot more fun.

The second side to this feel thing is from a 'smile factor' standpoint. If having twins on the stern makes you smile every time you see the boat then you did the right thing. These are pleasure boats; they're supposed to make you smile. Nothing's worse than buying a new 'thing' and then wishing you had made a different choice. This usually happens because you thought too much and over-analyzed the darn thing (this is really a 'guy' problem). Listen to your heart, to heck with the technical details; all these various engine configurations work super well...that's why there are so many happy CD22 owners.

4) You're a gunkholer (I am). If you like to sneak into tiny little places and go where none dared go before, or you like to cruise marinas and stick your nose down each float then you'll appreciate two things about the twins....1) you can tilt one engine up out of the water (usually the port because of the steering linkage) and 'tip-toe' in with the other (even with that one trimmed up a bit). If you do smack something then you've just got one prop to deal with. You can do this with a single and kicker but you don't get to sit at the helm with full control and the sounder right in front of you since you're in the cockpit running the kicker; which also means you're in the back of the boat where you can't see as well and 2) you can literally turn the boat in it's own length. This is really nice when you get into a dead-end in a marina and need to head the other direction, or when the wind is blowing and you want to dock. To really get the most from your twins (from a handling standpoint) you have to practice; if you don't you might find that you'll get yourself into more trouble trying to use both engines (other than in unison) than if you left one engine in neutral and just used one for maneuvering.

5) If you're doing the Power Squadron or Coast Guard Reserve thing (or just good Samaritan) and have a disabled boat along side you'll appreciate the ability to use differential power with the twins.

6) Profile and visibility; the twins are not as tall as the single engine so when you look back over the stern you don't see one tall motor sticking up in the center. Rather you're looking over the top of two shorter motors (better for sunset viewing from the cockpit). And it's back to the 'looks' thing again; some folks just prefer the lower profile of the twins when viewing the boat from the side (or any angle for that matter).

7) For fishing you can just troll on one of the twin engines; you don't have to worry about steering linkage, etc to the kicker motor; so you can sit at the helm where you have your depth sounder and full steering, speed and shift control. One twin running will slow down pretty darn well. You can troll on the main single but it's sometimes hard to get the speed down. The advantage of running from the helm can also be a disadvantage in that you must run from the helm since that's where the steering and controls are. This can be mitigated to some degree by having an autopilot with a remote in the cockpit; that's a very nice setup! And helps with cruising aspects as well. This is a very subjective area...it really depends a lot on how you fish. Or even if you fish.

8 ) The twins are slightly more efficient in the low and mid-range speeds since you have two props that constitute more blade area in the water than the single larger prop and you get better response. For cruisers with heavy loads this is a good thing. The flip side is you'll give it up at higher speeds where the extra drag of the twins comes into play.

I've probably missed a couple things I'm sure. In the final analysis what I find is that I can find more technical reasons for choosing a single and a kicker motor; I find more emotional reasons for choosing twins. This coincides greatly with what I've seen customers ultimately choose. Pure cruisers and those going to remote places tend to choose the twins; fisherman and local boaters tend to favor the single. These are, of course, just generalities and I personally know of several 'exceptions'; new boaters (in general) tend to gravitate to the twin configuration since their experience level and therefore their comfort level is not very high. [Unless you're an engineering type or technical type; in which case you're going to analyze the heck out of the thing anyway!]

[Sea Wolf]

Thanks, Les. I forwarded this to the discussion motor selection for the CD-22 in the Library section. Joe.

[shogimac]

Great discussion!

I've "lost' an engine three times and it always been about 25 miles away from port. Once a shift cable snapped and I could not get it into nuetral to restart the engine so the starboard leg got me home at about 7 or 8 knots per hour from albacore fishing. Coming down the Inside Passage a float jet on a carb got stuck open and flooded the engine to the point I could not start it but the port leg got me to Shearwater for a repair. Another trip a gasket seal somehow got tired and leaked out my engine oil and the buzzer went off so I lifted the starboard engine (oil would not hold) and got home on the port leg.

I have my engines serviced twice a year and take care of them but I also use them a lot. My main concern has always been contaminated fuel so of course that has not happened. I do have each gas tank independent going through seperate fuel filters. I also fish quite a bit and trolling is no problem with the twins so except for the expense, I'd go twins again. I have not whacked a prop yet but I do lift a leg when exploring. Good luck with the final decision, it would be tough to go wrong either way.

Tonie O

[Luna C]

Yes it has been very good reading. I see Tonie O has twin Honda BF40's. I still have a month or so to decide..... I use my boat as a van/pick-up. Any of you haul eight people around? Roofing or plywood? A dozen or so large (100#) sturgeon?

Chris 1/2 of Chris & Janet

CD22 wanabes (soontobes!)

[B~C]

For heavy hauling you might want to check this craft out...I think it's one of Dusty's old boats www.frenchcreekboatsales.com/details.asp?File_Number=BOP12
they got a buch of cool boats at this place, this boat would be the cats pajamas for bouy 10 fishing

[Luna C]

It was built in 45, a little older than I wanted. What is the draft? Not sure i could get it into my dock, or even into Lopez Sound!

Chris

[chinook]

Hello from Riverrat on Chinook!! :

I would vote for twins, and 40's at that. Reasons - reliability - dual charging systems - lots of floating stuff to get your prop in the Sound - essentially no weight penalty - and you can self rescue with a set of jumper cables or a prop wrench. Enjoy!!

[wilbe asea]

Greeting to Chris and Janet, I am a 1 year old owner, and my take on the twins is get two fifties. If I had it to do over again, I would, rather than the two forty horse Hondas. With the kind of loads you say you want to haul, you will like the extra 20 horsepower. If I remember rightly, there is little if any weight difference. Cost is another matter.

I did damage a prop last year by hitting a submerged something or other, but only one. With only one motor to power us, we could not get on step, so now I carry two extra props, one of the same pitch that I normally run, in case I damage only a prop, and one of a more "power" profile rather than "speed" profile. That way if I lose a lower unit or carb or whatever, I should be able to get a more respectable speed from the lower pitch prop, but if only the prop is damaged I can easily be back to normal cruising.

As far as the battery system is concerned, it is a must to have a battery switch, so that only one motor charges the battery that is being used to power the dash, electric downrigger, cd player, gps, depthfinder, Wallas, etc. The switch as it is rigged on my boat selects which battery runs the electrical stuff on the boat. If set to "Both", then both batteries run the elecrical stuff and both alternators charge both batteries, which is a bad thing as Les referred to in his excellent recent post. So it is set to port for the most part, so I only use that battery for the dash stuff.

I ran my battery down last year on an extended trip, but the other battery was isolated from the overnight power draw and started that motor right up. I then selected the both position on the switch, and let that motor charge both batteries for a half hour or so, at higher than idle speed, then switched to one battery only on the switch and started the motor that previously had the dead battery. My wife was quite relieved.

To embellish on what Les said about manouvering, when the wind is cross wise to the dock, one gets a good idea of what sail area means. With the twins it is somewhat easier to get to the dock in such conditions without using a fair amount of speed to overcome the breeze. With a little practice, one can get fairly adept a docking the boat in a tight spot, using forward and reverse at the same time.