hydraulic steering --dual helm

digger · Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2003 9:10 pm Post subject: hydraulic steering --dual helm

This is "digger" on "Snoopy-C". Been considering dual helm on my 22 cruiser. Currently have no-feed-back mechanical steering. Wondering if anyone has installed the SeaStar or BayStar hydraulic systems, including dual helm for control back in the cockpit. My mechanical makes for a lot of running through the door when trolling and having the main and kicker connected. Can't really swing the main with the kicker tiller handle without feeling like I might break it. Where are the best deals on a hydraulic system? By the way, the new site is getting better and better. Thanks to all the efforts from Bill, TyBoo, and Red Fox for doing a great job. Hope to meet you all one of these days.
Ron

Sorry about posting in a spot that might be incorrect

Mr. Fisherman · Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 4:19 am Post subject: Well...

I didn't install mine but I love it.
I have dual helms on my 22' Angler with an EZ steer connector for the kicker. Anchoring, Crabbing and trolling are a dream. I wouldn't be without it now that I have had it.
Now I just need a trollmaster throttle control or maybe an autopilot with throttle control...

TyBoo · Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 11:26 am Post subject:

Hi Digger -

I was just talking with Les about a dual helm setup on our 1996 25 CD. It has no windows in the rear bulkhead, other than one in the door, and I think the cockpit control station would be excellent for docking and fishing. He says you can't use the BayStar system (about $500) in a dual setup, so you have to have the SeaStar ($1000+). Ouch. Just in case that didn't sting me enough, he said one of the options for the motor controls was an electronic rigamarole for about 4k. This one will take some thinking.

digger · Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 12:59 pm Post subject: dual helm

TyBoo or Les -- could you tell me why the BayStar system can't be used for dual helm.

Thanks, Ron

Mr. Fisherman · Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 3:54 am Post subject: Hmmm...

I'll research this one. Part of the reason I didn't go with Yamaha and/or Mercury for my motor purchase was due to the expense of upgrading to expensive electronic controlls....
But my steering is already in place...
They seem like seperate issues to me....
So long as you have the ability to add a station inline with the pump there shouls be no issue with the steering.
I'll report out on my system when I get a chance...
I wouldn't be without it now, that's for sure....

Les Lampman · Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 10:05 am Post subject:

Hi Digger,

The best answer I can give you on the BayStar dual helm situation is that Teleflex says it can't be done (in writing and on the phone with the tech folks). I don't know what the actual pysical limitation is but obvioulsy in my position I can't be installing stuff that isn't "approved".

The BayStar is approved for use with a hydraulic autopilot and I've done several with the ST5000+; now the new (and lower priced) ST6001 is out. With an ST600R remote in the cockpit this makes a great setup for trolling (the steering response is very quick with the remote). But, it really wouldn't work for docking or close maneuvering for pot pickups. For one thing, you wouldn't have shift & throttle control (that helps!...somtimes Shocked

) Plus...then you've also got an autopilot for your cruising needs too. I believe this is one of the higher bang-for-the-buck items that you can install; it gets used a lot. Note: the ST5000 and the ST6001 are hydraulic systems and can only be installed on boats with hydraulic steering. If you've got mecanical steering you'd have to look at the SportPilot offering; I've not done one and I don't know what the options are for remote control.

The electronic controls TyBoo Mike mentioned are not "necessary". It's just when you're installing a second full station (with shift & throttle) in the cockpit adding another mechanical control box along with the "mixer" and having to replace the cables to the main controller is a bunch of work and the results are not spectacular since there's so much clunky mechanical stuff happening. It's still WAY less expensive than upgrading to electronic controls but it all depends on how much you use the system, how much you like your boat, how long you plan to keep the boat, etc that makes it worth it or not. The electronic controls are expensive going in but they're wonderful every time you use them and the payback is long term. I don't typically recommend them because of their cost. That's coming down and I'd say within the next couple of years we'll see them start to become pretty common on smaller boats like the C-Dory.

digger · Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 12:14 pm Post subject: dual helm

Thank you for the input Les and Mr. Fisherman. Looks like the jury may still be out on the practicality of the BayStar for dual helm. In one of the schematics I've seen on hydraulic dual helm, I've seen an extra line going between helms. I assume that may be to connect the reservoirs, but do not know for sure. The main purpose I have for dual helm is merely the steering, not the engine controls, since I would do all of the docking from the main station.

Perhaps Mr. Fisherman can tell me what kind of system is installed on his boat, beit BayStar or SeaStar, or perhaps Hynautics. I guess I'll need to determine whether the expenditure is warranted to save me banging my head running through the doorway to make a steering correction when I have a fish making the reel howl. From the stuff I've seen, it looks like a SeaStar system is around $1300-1400, unless someone has seen discounted systems.

Thanks, Ron

Sawdust · Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 4:11 pm Post subject:

Digger,

On C-Salt the remote really worked great for fishing or any operation from the cockpit where control of the motors' throttle and shift was not required. Iit seems to me the Baystar with autopilot and remote would be the way to go... Les may have other ideas. In the C-Salt configuration we had the added advantage of also having the depth on the remote, so it was easy to sit in the cockpit and adjust downrigger depths, control steering, etc. There are other function also on the remote... but can't remember all. When the 22 gets rigged that's the way I hope to go. Dusty says "Yes, yes, yes," wallet says, "No, no, no."

Ol' Dusty

Sawdust · Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 5:29 pm Post subject:

Can't say enough good about having an autopilot. When fishing, it lets you go back and get your gear set up and do all the cockpit chores without having the boat wander. It's almost like having another person aboard, although admit I miss Mrs. Dusty's chatter from the FF seat. A little Boot Scootin' Boogie on the jukebox sort of helps.

Also makes you a safer helmsman because you can set the pilot and concentrate on watching for pumpkins, fences, and logs -- and other boats that are trying to kill you.

Not hard to tell that I like having an autopilot aboard.

Chicken Dusty

digger · Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 6:32 pm Post subject: dual helm

Thank you guys for all of the input. Looks like there has been a lot of thought into the control -- me too. I don't really need the throttle and shift control (I don't think so at this point anyway) and suggestions are for the BayStar and autopilot with remote......hmmmm sounds like $500+ for the BayStar and ??? for the autopilot.

Jeese, I love boats and the customizing, but the hole for the money is ever deepening. Smile

"Digger" here on "Snoopy-C" Thumbs Up

Les Lampman · Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:03 am Post subject:

Hi Digger,

I don't think the jury is still out; at least not according to the folks that make the systems. The BayStar is NOT appproved or designed for a second helm installation...they couldn't be more adamant about it. You can call Teleflex Tech Support at 604-270-6899 in Richmand, BC and they may have a better explanation than I'm able to provide.

And...to complicate matters just a bit..when installing a dual Sea Star system you'll need: one engine mounted steering cylinder, two helm pumps, four hydraulic outboard hoses (2 from the forward helm to the second station and 2 from the second station to the outboard), a second helm/autopilot fitting kit, and a steering wheel for the aft helm. That'll be close to $1,800 to $2000. The ST6001 basic model should be running around $1000; so that and the BayStar ought to be around $1500 and the remote another $300-odd. Pretty much a toss-up; one way you get direct wheel control in the cockpit with the potential to add shift and throttle control and the other you get an autopilot to use whenever it helps out.

Morse Hynautics was purchased by Teleflex; it appears that most of the Hynautic equipment is being obsoleted.

For those of you contemplating installing a SeaStar system with a Teleflex "kit" and then installing a second station later be aware that when you do add the second station you'll need to remove the long hydraulic hoses that came in the kit and replace them with shorter hoses from the forward helm to the aft helm and also from the aft helm to the engine. In other words, you get to pull two hoses and install four (the outboard hydraulic hoses can not be cut and spliced). If you know this is the way you want to go from the begining (even if the second helm will go in later) buy the "helm kit" without the hoses and buy the four hoses up front(cheaper than throwing a set away later) and hook them together at the rear bulkhead (or where the aft helm will go) with a coupler (later the "T" will replace the coupler when the second helm goes in). There aren't a lot of the older "all-in-one" kits still out there; they're mostly the "helm kit" and separate hoses but you might still see some of the older kits on-line.

Chivita · Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 12:33 pm Post subject:

Digger,

Chivita, our 22' cruiser, has the Baystar system and an Sportpilot plus which works pretty well. An option you might consider that is substancially cheaper than going with the SeaStar system with dual helms is going instead with a remote control for the autopilot. It will not control your speed, but it will control the helm. With only 50 hours on Chivita, I'm still learning her personality and I'm not yet comfortable with connecting my remote and steering from the cockpit, roof or where ever so I cannot say how well it will work. My father's boats on the other hand all have this setup and he swears by it. I have used the remotes on his boats and they have worked very well, sitting on the forward deck of his houseboat with nothing but open water in front of you and steering all over a lake with the remote is absolute paradise. Really puzzles people since they can't figure out who is steering the thing.

Two other comments/thoughts I have on what you are contemplating, instead of the Sportpilot plus, if you have the funds, I'd heavily recommend talking to Les about the ST5000. It seems to be a stronger system and there are more accesories available for it, Les has alot of experience with it and can give you more detail. Also, not sure which engine(s) you have, but my father and I have just discovered that the 40 horse Yamaha's cannot use a Baystar or Seastar without some serious modifications to the transom mount. There are two tabs on the Yamaha 40 that allow you to mount it with screw down bolts to the front of the transom. These have to be cut off if you want to be able tilt the engine up with the Baystar/Seastar hydralic ram mounted to it or you will bend the Baystar/Seastar cylinder.

Chivita Dave

Chivita · Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 12:35 pm Post subject:

Digger,

Connected the remote yesterday and tested it today. I am quite impressed! If you're ever in my neck of the woods and want to check it out, send me an email!

Chivita Dave

digger · Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 2:45 pm Post subject: dual helm

Thank you all for the input on the dual helm scenario. I guess I'll need to contemplate the pros and cons of the various suggestions prior to finalizing my decision. You guys have been of great help.

What I have is Yamaha 100 4 stroke connected to a Honda tiller 8HP. Just wanted steering control from the back during trolling as long as the Honda tiller is the kicker. I do have trollmaster on the kicker for speed control, and that will have to do unless I decide to go to a remote control kicker, and replace the tiller system. I have a connecter bar between the two motors currently for steering.

Thanks again to all of you for the input. I'll need to place a pen to paper, and then examine the billfold prior to making an order

Ron (digger) on Snoopy-C

Mr. Fisherman · Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 3:27 am Post subject: Docking

Digger, Don't be so quick to discount shifting and throttle control from the cockpit. I use my second helm almost always to dock, especially when I am by myself.
I wish you guys would quit all this talk about auto pilots. I can't afford one right now...
But I do have plans to add one...
Here are my thoughts... I really want speed control for my kicker. I'm thinking trollmaster here and it sounds like you are in good shape there.
Like you I have a connecting rod between the main motor and kicker so I can steer from the helm, I just have an extra helm (Very handy)
Now, I'd like throttle control with my autopilot have been seriously considering the TR-1 Gladiator. Man it's expensive but it will likely be the last one I'll have to buy.
With this system I get the control I think I need, which is to say with the trollmaster I get remote speed controll of the kicker when trolling so I can gun it when I get a takedown. This really increases my stick em and catch em ratio.
With the gladiator I can control the speed of the main motor remotely when I am on auto pilot headed to the Tuna grounds or Halibut fishing and I can rig in the cockpit.
While docking or crabbing I can use the secondary controls and helm to get right on my pots and pull them by myself if I want to or need to.
My wife thinks that my list will never end, maybe she is right. It will take me a lifetime to catch up with Tyboo. So many toys, so little time and money. Now that guy's got me looking at a new truck. It's a good thing I haven't made a trip up North. I might be living on my boat if I ever do...