Balsa core problems

Pat Anderson · Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:13 am Post subject:

I am sorry to hear this, especially that things have not been resolved and that you have buyer's remorse - I DON'T think your story is typical...I don't know how C-Dory let a boat go out with those defects as documented in your photos. As our second boat, we will be looking our CD25 over a little more thoroughly before we pull out of the parking lot than we did the first time with our CD22. But I think the suggestion that all through-hull penetrations need to be seated in epoxy is not correct (Les?), and a lot of little things are readily correctible, like the drain hose. Still, it does give a person pause.

flagold · Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:21 am Post subject:

Minnow:

Fully understand -- a lot of money for a rotted boat right away, no matter how small the rot.

When I got my boat home, after having read all I could and been looking at them for over 10 years, I checked for water in the bow guard (it had it -- screws put in to deep (a well known problem) -- took them out -- dried it -- sealed every screw with JB Weld, and then took a fingerful and went the whole length of each mating surface of the brass guard and sealed the edges completely. About that time someone posted they'd found water in the fwd cabin. I took the fwd deck hatch out of the cabin. Water in there? Yep. Dried that out -- filled it completely with salt -- at least if I get any more water in there it will turn to brine and preserve the wood rather than rot it (old sailing ship trick). I then went around and re-sealed every through hull and screw-hole I could get to from both sides.

It took a full day of my time and a boatload of water off my mind . . .

These are wonderful boats that will do what no others will do, but as always, there's room for improvement at the factory.

Good luck!

Larry H · Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:37 am Post subject:

Minnow,

I have a 1991 22 cruiser and I installed my own gas tanks when the boat was new. I just used a marine sealer in the screw holes and under the mounting flanges. Last year I removed the tanks and checked the balsa. No rot was found. I reinstalled the tanks with marine sealer (3M 4200). The side grain of the balsa core is fairly resistant to water intrusion. I am not worried about this, and my boat is 14 years old.

If you are worried, pull each screw and squirt some 3M 4200(for screws to be removed later) or 3M 5200(for screws that will not be removed later) into the screw holes and reinstall. I wouldn't use silicone based sealers.

For complete sealing of any exposed core, I would use West System epoxy to coat the edges.

I hope you can resolve your problems so you can get on with the enjoyment of your new boat.

gary allen · Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:49 pm Post subject: screw repair

Larry asked how the screw repair went. Seems fine so far. I only fixed the one really loose screw since I was in a hurry to get on the water for the salmon season opener. I described earlier how I enlarged the hole, cleaned out the area, dried it, and filled the hole with epoxy. My boat will be out of its slip for the month of June since we'll be out of the country. When I return, I plan to epoxy all the holes and reinsert the screws.

Valkyrie · Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 6:53 pm Post subject:

Gary and others,

Here are a couple tricks I learned about using epoxy and screws when I attended a Gougeon Brothers (west System) professional boat builder repair school for three days in Bay City, MI.

I prefer the West System epoxy with a filler about the consistency of peanut butter. To make future removal of the screw easier. spray the screw with Pam (spray-on non-stick for cooking) and then insert it into the wet epoxy. It will come out like a charm.

If you have already put the screw without Pam as a release agent, place the tip of a soldering iron, or woodburning tool on the head of the screw for a short while, which will soften the epoxy enough to release it.

Whenever I have added fitting to my boats (deck plates for water intake, etc) I have always drilled oversize holes and gone with the West System epoxy and filler. The larger size gives much more purchase and the epoxy effectively seals the hole from water damage.

West System has what they call a Maxi Pack which has enough gear and stuff to make six small repairs. It's in every tool kit I have.

Heading to Seattle from Cleveland to see our boat in the factory on the 13th!

Nick
Valkyrie

Minnow · Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:39 pm Post subject:

Pat , to clarify my last post, I'm not proposing to bed everything in epoxy, but to seal the core first, then bed the screw or fitting with 4200 or other appropriate sealant. West system suggests to bed major load bearing fittings in epoxy and that makes perfect sense, but the goal in my case is to keep the core dry at all reasonable costs.
I have a friend in my yacht club with a CD22, and he used this past off-season to pull all fittings and screws in the cored areas and epoxy seal the core. Is this overkill? Not if you want to keep the boat a long time.
Am I shooting myself in the foot by speaking up, if I decide to dump this boat? Maybe.

Cutty Sark · Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 1:30 pm Post subject: balsa problems

I know alot of sailors that all do the oversize hole, fill with epoxy and then redrill smaller hole trick. Because they have lots of equipment mounted to the cabin roof, and alot of the sailboats use wood in the construction. I t definatly takes time but seems worth it with a wood cored boat. Big investment to let rot. More and more boat companies are changing to other core materials, because of water intrusion. And even Cdory has changed their transom. And I am astounded if the factory did tell you to get a canvas for the problem. Doesen't seem on par with what I've heard about them. But I would be pretty upset too, after buying a new 25 to be told that I have to buy a canvas to cover up a flaw in the construction. But it seems like taking the time to drill the oversize holes should take care of your problem if you decide to keep the boat. If not there are alot of choices these days with no wood construction, if thats now high on your list of priorities. Actually I believe the skagit orcas made by C Dory are no wood. But a whole different animal as far as boats go. Good luck and I hope you find a good solution that you will be happy with.

Sark

Levity · Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 6:04 pm Post subject:

Hi folks,
After reading the thread about bulging tanks I checked mine to find that they had bulged and pulled the screws out of the cockpit floor. The batteries were also secured to the cockpit floor (between the tanks) with battery strap cleats resulting in 8 more potential core exposures.There was no rot in the holes. I drilled all the holes out (20 in total) and filled them with Adhesive Methods & Technology's 7540AB adhesive and used the same product to glue the StarBoard cleats back to the cockpit floor. It has worked well and was not difficult to do. The trade off is no screw holes in the core but no easy removal of the now permanent StarBoard tank cleats.
Mike 'Levity"

Larry H · Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 9:25 pm Post subject:

Mike,

Can you get the tanks out without surgery now?

dogon dory · Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 2:25 pm Post subject:

Sorry, Folks - Post Deleted By Author

CAVU · Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 3:04 pm Post subject:

Dan,
I just finished repairing my tank hold-downs. I would disagree with you about the reason the screws are pulling loose. At least on my boat (2002), the screws are pulled loose by the nylon retaining strap across the top of the tank. When the tank deforms with temp changes, fuel absorption or whatever reason, if the top pushes up on the strap which is firmly atch at the top of the vertical cover board this puts an almost vertical pulling force on the screws. The screws holding the 1x1 cleat to the floor are only held by the thin veneer of fiberglass over the balsa. An expansion of the tank in a horizontal plane would put a sheer force on the screws, in a direction they would be relatively strong. As a side note the tanks don't actually rest against the transom. The rear edge of the tank rests against a SS strap-eye which is screwed to the floor. I do agree the the fix from the factory, at least based on what I have read here, will solve the problem. I think the pressure from the strap theory explains why some people have not had a problem while others have. It just depends on how much you tank deforms against the top strap. Just my $.02 FWIW.

dogon dory · Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 3:53 pm Post subject:

Sorry, Folks - Post Deleted By Author

Chuck B · Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 5:10 pm Post subject:

Dan, I was at the C-Dory factory Thursday, and it appears the new tank mounting cleats, which are glassed onto the cockpit floor, are absolutely firm against the tank, with the tank hard up against the transom. However, the bulkhead will now be fastened on the forward side of the cleats, rather than aft. So, the tanks will fit tight to the cleats at their base, but there will be a 1" (or so) space for expansion between the tanks and the bulkhead anywhere above the height of the cleat. This is what Jeff meant by allowing clearance for expansion. That clearance is in the center of the tank, but not at the very base. I think the assumption is that the tank expands by bulging in the middle, not by growing in length along the edge. If you follow me so far, do you think the tanks need some clearance at their base, to avoid stress on the cleat which might now crack the laminate, as opposed to loosening screws? Thanks.

Chuck

dogon dory · Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 5:40 pm Post subject:

Sorry, Folks - Post Deleted By Author

Mighty Bite · Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 6:00 pm Post subject:

If you have floorboards in the cockpit there may not be room enough between the cabin bulkhead and the cleats to allow flipping the covers to the front side of the cleats and use the original screw holes but it would sure be worth a look see.

Jeez, I'd been under the apparent delusion that engineers always looked for complicated solutions!