2003 c-dory 22' blister problem

[patrick and linda]

I'M LEAVING THE OFFICE NOW AND WON'T BE BACK UNTIL THURSDAY.
HAVING A MINOR MEDICAL TEST, TOMORROW AT THE LOCAL HOSPITAL. IT'S NO BIG DEAL. I'LL BE BACK IN SHAPE, THURSDAY.
HAVE A GREAT DAY
PAT

[patrick and linda]

well i'm back and feeling ok. was not supposed to be in the office today but like they say, it's hard to keep a good sailor down.
so, the word from c-dory is in and it's not what i was hoping to hear.
received the call last evening, bottom line is:
1. warranty does not extend to second and subsequent owners.
2. hull warranty for all new owners does not extend to blisters.
3. the direct and proximate cause of this blistering effect, mentioned by the company, is not having applied bottom paint as well as barrier solution.
it's to early for me to comment on this happening, while sadden that my relatively newer boat is now damaged goods, thru no fault of my own, i am now responsible for the time, cost and manner in which the damaged hull must be repaired. that my friends, was not in my float plan!
the home office, while not required to do so, has made me the offer of $500.00 donation, to help offset cost.
i share this information with you, my buddy boaters, because i appreciate each and everyone that has given me advice, concerning this matter.
i would prefer no negative statements regarding the company's position on hull warranty, as this would in no way facilitate cooperation on the company's part for future considerations, to any of us.
a warranty is absolutely a contract, both, legal and binding on all parties.
during my conversation last evening, c-brats was not brought up, had they asked me not to report on this matter, i would not be making this
post. well, now you know as much as me.
best regards all,
capt. pat, out!

[Sea Wolf]

Patrick-

Sorry to hear the news about your warranty issue, but I believe you're handling it in a very respectable, professional manner. I want to wish you the best of luck and offer any support that I, or any of the rest of our C-Brats can muster. Joe.

[drjohn71a]

Sorry to hear about your situation, Pat. On the bright side, though, you have $500 toward a new sealant/bottom paint treatment which is that much less than it would have cost when you bought the boat. I know it may seem like a cold, cruel world, but, realistically, bottom painting a boat that is left in the water is sort of a standard requirement. I doubt that having the hull sanded, sealed and bottom painted will lower your resale value.

John

[flagold]

[patrick and linda]

hi sea wolf and john,
good to hear from you guys.
while i have 160 days of sea duty, the majority of my boating experience has been the inland water ways. of that experience i'm not aware of one fellow boater that has applied a barrier application to their hull. bottom paint, yes, but not barrier and then bottom paint combination.
bottom paint as you guys know, does not prevent blistering. when immersed in oxygenated water bottom paint products photochemically generate minute levels of peroxides, and it is the peroxides which control the attachment of organisms to the hull, not the prevention of blisters.
i also own a 2001 2352 trophy, it literally, has been in the water, (lake cumberland) for the past three years. does not have bottom paint nor barrier, the water temps fluctuate from high of 86 to low of 41. shows not one sign of blisters. now, is that luck or just todays improved fiberglass technology at work? "misty seas" was only in the water for seven months.
i suppose it would be prudent to have a professional determine the cause of this condition, blisters or flawed product/workmanship, or what ever.
at this stage, i would like to know this cause and suspect you would as well.
in the overall scheme of life this is not a biggie.
good health, fine wine, and a terrific bride to enjoy it with, is what my life is about.
as always,
best regards
pat

[lloyds]

I would get an in depth check of some of the largest spots, by a really good surveyor, and then work out the plan. They don't sound like they are much of a problem yet. I would have been very surprised if C-Dory, or any other company would warranty against blisters. There are a few that do, but generally on like a 10 year basis, to the first owner. Tillotson-Pearson was one of the first and few. Boats left in the water suffer from those things more often than not. Even the best of boats like C-Dory and Boston Whaler.

[drjohn71a]

In trying to figure out why some hulls in some places have more of that problem, I was wondering if it could be related to the fresh water moisture being more likely to freeze? Even if out of the water, before totally dried out? I have read that storing a boat in a freezing climate where water can accumulate in the bilge can cause damage by the ice forcing apart the fiberglass component. But, I guess there is no gelcoat in a bilge.

'Sounds like you've got your priorities in good order up there, Pat. Let us know if you find out anything more.

John

[Sea Wolf]

Captain Patrick-

Your quote:

"while i have 160 days of sea duty, the majority of my boating experience has been the inland water ways. of that experience i'm not aware of one fellow boater that has applied a barrier application to their hull. bottom paint, yes, but not barrier and then bottom paint combination."

At least out here on the West Coast, all the haul out yards I've ever delt with will not put bottom paint on a boat without first coating it with an epoxy barrier coat, some of them requiring three or even more coats before applying anti-fouling paint. In so doing, I'm thinking they're trying their best to stay out of the blister busisness and litigation.

It just sounds like you fot a faulty batch of green gel coat that can be corrected by drying out, then sanding and coating with epoxy, then the bottom paint. Should be a manageable problem, albeit a PITA. Good luck with the fix!

Joe.

[Valkyrie]

Pat,

Up here on Lake Erie, it has been standard procedure, for years, to apply a barrier coat before bottom paint. I believe this started in the 70's when the problem of blistering first started to get widespread coverage in the boating press.

Nick
"Valkyrie"

[Byrdman]

Patrick.... Not really sure what your trip to the doctor was for...but your reactions to all of this are ......shall I use the word understated. You have any more left of what ever they gave you?

On the serious side, some back ground emails on this topic from folks way smarter than me...and have worked with boat fiberglassing and all the steps....some of them TIME oriented steps... may have yielded to one step happening either too close....or too long after the next/prior step..

Hit me with an email and I will be glad to share some emails.. I have a lot of respect for your ability to maintain during a time like this.....even if it is with the doctors/pharmisit help.

Byrdman

[patrick and linda]

well guys,
i guess this old dog is not to old to learn new tricks.
your information is well received, albeit just a tad late.
here locally, unless you're dealing with an older vessel, say 1989 or older, barrier paint is not used. i suppose the reason for that is, the formula for fiberglass had change since then and the newer fiberglass was not as susceptible to develope blisters.
i have an appointment two weeks from now, with a premier marine service center, that will examine my boat and try to determine both cause and solution. on larger boats with blister problems they charge $200. per foot. holly #%*@. i hope they'll be measuring my water line length!
well guys, i'm out of here, heading south for the beautiful lake cumberland, where i'll be pulling "salty dog" for the season.
i think i've worked up a thirst! might be opening one of those finer bottles of wine this pm.
keep the wind at your back!
have a great weekend.
pat

[thataway]

Now that we have an "official" response from the factory; I will comment further. I have spent a good deal of time looking at boats with blisters for the last 40 years. I have also been involved in developing ultasonic testing for delamination and deep blistering. All of the compounds used in boat building are to some degree or another permiable to water. Gel coat is not an essential element for blistering. Fiberglass hot tubs, swimming pools and shower liners have all had bad blistering, so it is not even limited to boats.

As I commented previously--it appears as if you and Tony have a Gel coat problem--not an osmosis or blistering problem. I can only specluate what the factory did--and I hope that they will enter in the discussion. The layer which appears to have the small blisters is the color gel coat. I do not know if the factory was using a vinylester resin under the Cook Gel coat in 2003 or not. But it is possiable that there is an adherence problem between the gel coat and the next layer. Generally the white gel coat is sprayed into the prepared mold first. Then a color gel coat is sprayed. The color gel coat is to prevent the transmission of light--and the immediate recoginition of how thin and transparent the hull is! My Tom Cat 255 has green gel coat under the white outer gel coat over the entire hull (Green is the accent color of my boat). For example, the outer gel coats (green and white--could have been sprayed on a Friday night, and then the rest of the laminate (might include the vinlyester resin if it was sprayed on next--which is apparently done in some C Dory boats) after several days.
The polyester and vinlyester resins get most of the strength from a primary chemical bond--they are poorer than epoxies for a secondary bond. If resins harden over a time, the primary chemical bond will not develope.

If you had osmosis, which requires drying the boat under low humidity for a number of months or vacuum bagging, after hot water or steam washing, (checking with moisture meter peroidically) then peeling the outer layers, grinding out the blisters, relaminating with cloth and epoxy (if properly done) and recoating the boat must be done. About 1/16 to 1/8" of hull is removed with the carbide blades in a peel--and in some cases, a layer of 6 oz glass cloth is relaminated back onto the outer hull. The hull is built back up with water resistant epoxy resin--often containing fillers to increase its water resistance. Then the bottom paint is applied.

In your case, the "Cure" is less drastic. The outer layer of gel coat should be sanded off, then epoxy resin applied to at least the thickness of the gel coat. I would shoot for 30 mils to be safe--which is a bit overkill.
Then a bottom paint is applied. All of the above is based on not seeing your boat or looking directly at the blisters, but the descriptions you and Tony give.

It is my understanding that the factory recommends that epoxy barrier coat be applied before bottom paint, after dewaxing and sanding lightly.
Although it may be the habit of boat shops in your area not to apply epoxy, it is the national standard to apply epoxy barrier coats first. I will never bottom paint a boat without putting epoxy on first. I would not leave a boat in the water for a prolonged time without epoxy barrier coat. There are boats which did not show any sign of blistering for years--and all of a sudden it developed.
Actually the process probably started long before it became apparent. But once blisters are obvious, Osmosis has reached a critical stage. Unfortunately many shops have done half way jobs in the past--not drying the boat enough, not being agressive enough in the peel, not doing a proper grinding (with carbide router tip in an air die grinder), not properly relaminating the hull with glass cloth and epoxy....not putting on enough of a barrier coat.

Your job should cost less than the $200 a foot...(I have seen some blister repairs cost considerably more than that)

Good luck and keep us posted as to how much damage is done--if it goes into layers beyond the gel coat.

[Fairbro]

As I posted on the "should have bought a Bayliner" thread recently, I have the described problem on my '01 green gelcoat below the waterline. I get the impression that most of it occures on '03 models but that is not the only case. I also noticed a distinct lightening of the green color from the waterline down. As previously stated I am going to be the control case and continue to leave her in 7 months a year and do nothing heroic. I love her dearly but She's a boat not a Swiss watch.

[captd]

Capt Pat.

I know how you feel, I had the same problem, only it was on a 45 ft. Chris Craft. That is a lot of bottom. ( I use to know a girl like that ) This has been a common problem since they started to build these thing out of fiberglass. I heard that Hatteras builds their boats with out gel coat on the bottom. It is finished with epoxy.

For what it is worth I will tell you what I found out after a lot of research. The blisters are from a chemical reaction. they can be under up to two hundred pds of pressure. I used a drill with a counter sink bit. I tapped every one of those thousands to relieve the pressure and allow them to dry out. The dryer the better. Made the boat look like it had measles. If not taken care of they get bigger and cause delamination. West System has the best cure for this. It will make the bottom better than new. It is a two part epoxy with fillers. After taping and drying, sand the bottom enough so the epoxy will stick. fill the tap holes with filler after wetting the holes with just epoxy. Don't let them completely dry before putting on several coats of the two part mix. one after the other over the whole bottom. I used microscopic aluminum Plates supplied by West System. Mix it in with the epoxy on the over all coats. When it is dry it will look like aluminum. Now you put the bottom Paint on. Good stuff like Micron by Interlux.
I don't know if I have explained it well enough, but when it is done it is better than new. West System has good instructions. You probably can get a booklet from them off the internet.

Hope it was some help. If you have ANY questions just ask.

CaptD