12-Volt Electrical Systems

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From: LesLampman (Original Message) Sent: 11/13/2002 7:59 AM

The best type of battery to have on an outboard is a healthy cranking battery with a good CCA/MCA rating. A small boat uses its battery much the way a car does ... the battery is primarily for starting, as soon as the motor cranks it supplies power for the electrical loads and recharges the battery.

The trouble is that cranking batteries have thinner plates and less robust construction and won't take repeated discharges without shortening their life considerably. So when installed on boats that are apt to have loads on the battery when the motor is not running we're asking a cranking battery to do a job it wasn't designed for.

The compromise is a dual purpose battery which is normally the kind installed in small boats; particularly with outboard power. These batteries still start the motor just fine, accept recharging readily and can take some discharge cycles from lights, stereos, pot pullers, etc. The outboard still has a pretty good chance of bringing these batteries up to snuff because their plates are not too thick.

A true deep cycle battery is a bad thing connected to an outboard. First of all it usually has a capacity way out of whack with the alternator output (the alternator should put out, at a minimum, 1/4 of the capacity of the battery ... so a 16-amp alternator shouldn't be connected to any battery bigger than 64AH and that's assuming you're always getting the full 16-amps, which you don't), a deep cycle battery requires a 3-stage charger (not on any outboard I've ever seen) and it requires a lot of time to recharge properly. In fact, at least one outboard manufacturer sent a bulletin to all its dealers telling them that using a deep cycle battery was strictly a no-no. The Optima Blue Top 56AH dual purpose battery would be a good choice here.

The Optima batteries are AGM's (absorbent glass mat) and not gel cells. AGM batteries act like typical flooded lead-acid battery but they don't have the electrolyte sloshing around and don't require maintenance. There also have a longer life, do not self-discharge as fast as wet cells and can be mounted in any position other tha upsidedown.

Bigger is NOT always better, sometimes it's just bigger. Your electrical system is just that ... a system. Components within that system need to match each other. Most of us wouldn't spend $3000 on a stereo receiver and then $50 on the speakers ... we know that just ain't right. Electrical systems are not as familiar to a lot of folks but the principles still apply. Think of your batteries as a swimming pool and your alternator as a hose. You're in trouble if they build you an Olympic-sized pool and hand you a garden hose.

High-capacity, high quality 12-volt systems on a boat are expensive; period. If you add refrigeration to a boat the cost of the refrigerator is only about half of what you'll spend to put the system together. Refrigeration requires the use of high capacity deep cycle batteries ... we already know the outboard can't deal with these so that means we're going to need to add a good 3-stage, 110-volt charger to the system and we'll also need a way to connect to shore power.

We’ll have to choose some high capacity batteries because you can only use 50% of their rated capacity without severely affecting their life. Typically you will only be able to bring the batteries back up to around 80% without staying on the charger for days. You'll go through 3-stages of charging on your deep cycles batteries: bulk, absorption and float. It takes quite a while for the float charge to "top off" the battery; that means we're really working with the 30% between 50% discharge and 80% charge.

The biggest Optima batteries available are 65 amp-hours ... those would run our 12-volt refrigerator for about 5 hours per battery given constant running. Even under the best circumstances the refrigerator will likely run at least 50% of the time so you may get 10 hours of running time per battery. Remember, the refrigerator will run much longer than that but you'll be damaging the battery. The only real way to tell is with an amp-hour meter in the system so you know what you've really used (a Link 10 would be ideal). Charging two Optima batteries after 10 running hours of the refrigerator would take about 5 hours on a charger like the Xantrex TrueCharge 10 (the size recommended for 65 amp-hour batteries) back up to about 80% on the batteries; to fully charge them would take much longer. Even using really optimistic numbers you'll have to recharge every day if you want maximum battery life.

You could go to bigger batteries to extend your time between recharging. Something like 200 amp-hours would really be nice. The problem is they'd be 8D batteries, weigh a bunch (160 to 180 lbs. each), are expensive and would require a 40-amp charger. If you used them the same way as the Optima batteries (that is 30% of rated amp-hours) you could then get close to 15 hours of run time per battery. With a 40-amp charger you could bring these batteries back up in about 3 hours. The best way to shorten charge time and extend run time is with larger battery because the percentages start working in your favor. The trouble is finding room for them and putting up with their weight, which would be considerable on a CD22.

By comparison you could buy an Ultra 50 cooler, which has about the same space as a typical under-seat refrigerator and will keep ice for 5+ days for under $50. A really superb (and much larger capacity) SSI will set you back around $600 but that's still much cheaper than a 12-volt system, has more room, is more efficient and makes a nice bench seat … doesn't take much to wire it or maintain it either.

There are no easy answers when designing a 12-volt system for your boat. Everything you think you want the system to do must be evaluated, the loads computed and weighed against what your battery bank can supply; and how the batteries will be recharged. The use of high quality components can not be over emphasized; this is not the place to skimp.

From: Pat & Mary Sent: 11/14/2002 6:12 AM
Les:

I know you have already answered (warned) me in a general way on the other site, but....

Ordering our 25' CD with a refrigerator was one of the requirements for spousal approval and I have to get it to work. The 130 HP Honda has a high output 40A alternator, and the boat comes with the shore power set up, which includes a 30A charger and automatically switches the refrigerator to 110 volts when hooked up.

Given all this, and the fact that the refrigerator will mostly be used while cruising (ie several hours of motor running during the day, overnights at marinas every third day or so), could I prevail upon you to suggest the optimum (forget $ for the time being) system? I would really appreciate your specific thoughts.

Many thanks!

Patrick

From: LesLampman Sent: 11/14/2002 8:35 AM

Hi Pat,

In trying to outline and discuss systems aboard boats one always walks a fine line between what is recommended and what will work. The most important thing to me is that folks are able to make informed decisions going into projects and additions to the boat. So, please don't take my comments to mean that I don't think folks should never add refrigeration ... only that you should know going in what you're getting in to.

My comments were mostly written with the CD22 in mind and your situation is actually quite different because of the 40A alternator the BF130 has (as compared to 16A on the BF75/90 or the 20A combined output of the twin BF40's).

I believe that the refrigerator currently being installed is the Norcold DC-0051 (it could be the DE-0051 which runs on 12V and 110V). Typical draw on these units when running is about 3 amps. Unless you're running in very cool areas we need to figure at least a 50% run time for the refer to calculate battery size. If you're in very warm weather (especially if it stays warm at night) run time could be 75-80%. For now, lets figure that we need to feed the refer about 36 AH (amp-hours; think of it like a gallon of gas).

We shouldn't draw our batteries down below 50% so that means we have to choose a battery or two with a total capacity of at least 72AH to run the refer for one day. In reality we normally won't be able to charge our battery(ies) to more than about 80% while cruising so we need to subtract that from the rated capacity of the battery(ies) we choose; that puts us at 90AH. If we want to stay somewhere for a couple of days without firing up the BF130 we will need two of these batteries.

My battery of choice for this situation would be something like the West Marine Sea-Volt AGM Group 27 of 92AH. If you want a little more capacity at not much more money with just a bit more weight and about the same size you could choose the Group 31 West Marine AGM battery that has 105 AH, this would be a better choice for warm weather areas. You could substitute regular wet cell batteries for the AGMs but in my opinion the AGMs are so much better that they're worth the extra money. AGM's require no maintenance (every wet cell does), they self-discharge at a far slower rate than do wet cells, they will withstand more cycles and they can be tipped over or set at weird angles without harm (to boat, battery or humans).

The Honda BF130 is actually going to be able to charge either the group 27 or group 31 batteries well ... except for the last 20%. When you get the chance to connect to shore power a 3-stage 110V charger can take care of that part of the charging cycle. I don't believe that's what C-Dory installs as standard equipment in their shore power system; what I remember is a rather wimpy Guest 10A 2-stage wannabe but it can be tossed out and a better unit installed (something like the TrueCharge system).

My preferred set-up would be a cranking battery for the engine (not a deep cycle) that is never used for 'house' power. An Optima Blue Top dual purpose battery would work really well here. The cranking battery will put out lots of starting power to the BF130 and recover quickly; just what we want for staring purposes. Then I would add one or two AGM batteries for 'house' use (how many depends entirely on how long you want to run the refer without running the BF130 or connecting to shore power). These would be connected to the 110V battery charger; there is no need to have the starting battery also connected to the 110V charger as in this set-up the BF130 will always keep that battery topped off and we're not drawing it down for 'house' use.

This is going to take some careful wiring on the part of the installer/riggers. This is not a complicated system at all but it is a notch or two above the typical runabout style system a lot of outboard riggers are used to. We need to maintain the integrity of the system by maintaining separation of the starting and house batteries. I am not a fan of parallel battery systems; I would not personally 'marry up' the two house batteries but rather choose one or the other with a selector switch; in this case a 1-both-2-off battery switch would be appropriate for the house batteries.

There are (at least) a couple of wiring schemes that make sense to me with this arrangement. One is to connect the BF130 to 'common' post on a 1-both-2-off switch (the engine battery switch (EBS)); the starting battery would come in on post '1'. The post '2' cable from the EBS is run to the 'common' post of the house battery switch (HBS); house battery 1 comes in on post '1' of the HBS and house battery 2 come in on post '2' of the HBS. The main wiring harness for the boat comes into the HBS on the 'common' post. This sounds complicated when read but if you sketch it out you will see it's actually quite simple.

A second option is to substitute a battery combiner (not a battery isolator) for the EBS. In theory as soon as the BF130 starts and the starting battery regains it's voltage an electronic switch closes inside the combiner and sends power to the house batteries. This would alleviate having to remember to manually change the EBS but it introduces another component to the system. I'd feel comfortable with either set up; it mostly depends on how good you are at remembering things like battery switches; go with the combiner if you're apt to forget.

The boat has been sitting and both the EBS and HBS are in the 'off' position and the house battery charger has been keeping them healthy. When we get to the water we'll place the EBS in the '1' position (for the starting battery) and the HBS switch on '1' or '2' (your choice). Then we'll fire up the BF130 and head out; now one of two things happen ... if you've installed the battery combiner it will do it's thing when the starting battery recovers, if instead we have a standard battery switch we'll change that from '1' to '2' after perhaps 15 to 30 minutes (15 if the engine fired immediately, maybe 30 minutes if it had to be cranked a lot (not likely)). The result of either action is that the BF130 is now charging our selected house battery. We shut down the BF130 for the day I'd personally turn the EBS to the 'off' position although it's not absolutely necessary. However, when you get ready fire up the BF130 again you want to out the EBS in the '1' position ... if you didn't turn it 'off' the night before it will be easier to forget this; if it was turned 'off' it's easy to remember ... nothing happens when you turn the ignition key. The key to this whole system and what makes everything work properly in to NEVER turn either the EBS or the HBS to the "all" position.

I'll be happy to cover more and I'll try to get a drawing done of the wiring involved but now I've got to head to work.

Les

From: Pat & Mary Sent: 11/14/2002 11:16 AM
Les:

A huge THANK YOU for what you have given me so far!!

Since I'm greedy (actually read not very knowledgeable about marine electical systems) I'm eagerly awaiting the drawing and the "cover more."

Thanks again.

Patrick

From: Joni Lynn Sent: 11/15/2002 10:45 AM
Hi Les,
Thanks for the good info on recommended batteries for an outboard.

I have a '98, 70 HP 4 stroke Johnson on my C Dory, and when I purchased the boat it was equipped with one deep cycle marine battery, which I used for the summer. Having read this posting now, and a much earlier posting by you on another site, I'm convinced to take your advice and switch to a dual purpose battery when I pull my boat out of storage next spring.

What would you consider a good CCA/MCA rating for a dual purpose battery? I will not be going for the Optima Blue Top AGMs, but the typical lead acid type. We have very few electronics on board, and other than a cabin light periodically, we will have very little drain on the battery. However, I would sooner stay with the dual purpose rather than just a cranking battery, in case of the periodic use of an anchor light etc. I might carry along a second cranking battery, just for the "what ifs".
Suggestions?
Thanks Les, I'm already enjoying the new Tech Site.
Paul aboard the Joni Lynn

From: LesLampman Sent: 11/15/2002 11:59 AM
Hi Paul,

I normally use the Interstate HD-24DP; it has ratings of 405CCA, a reserve capacity of 100 minutes and the MCA is 505 amps. Something similar should do just fine.

If it isn't time yet to replace the deep cycle battery I wouldn't worry about it; might as well get your money's worth. As long as the battery stays topped up it doesn't present much of a problem although it will never fully charge just off the outboard. You can top it off with a portable 110-volt charger if you want. Worst case scenario is when you have drawn down the deep cycle battery to a very low level and the outboard charging system has to try and deal with that. As long as it doesn't really get hit hard the outboard can keep it charged; at least to the 80% level or so.

Les

From: LesLampman Sent: 11/15/2002 3:47 PM
Hi Pat,

I did a drawing of a 3 battery set up and have a .dxf file for it. I'll be happy to send it to you if you have CAD or a viewer. I'm having trouble finding a .dxg to .jpeg or .gif converter (that isn't over $1000) so for now I scanned a print out of my drawing and uploaded it into the associated details folder for Electrical Systems. The scan didn't turn out too well since the original is pretty light. I'll continue to fool around with it and see if I can improve the quality.

Les

From: Pat & Mary Sent: 11/18/2002 6:51 AM
Hi Les:

First, thanks for the the three-battery drawing you posted. The quality is fine, and I downloaded and printed it without problems. However, since I am quite forgetful by nature, I think I would prefer to use the combiners, so I modified the setup to include two combiners as shown in the attached. (I actually used as a starting point one of the illustrations in the description of West Marine's Combiner 50, and modified it in Photoshop.) I posted it in the details folder, and although the thumbnail is generic, the drawing itself is OK.

What are your thoughts on this setup?

Patrick

From: Pat & Mary Sent: 11/18/2002 6:58 AM
Les:

I should have waited - the thumbnail is fine now.

Patrick

From: LesLampman Sent: 11/19/2002 1:53 PM
Hi Patrick,

Your drawing looks really good, much better quality than what I got.

I've got a couple of thoughts ... overall it looks quite good. However (you knew that was coming, right?), from a purely conservative and analytical viewpoint I feel that there should be no load other than the outboard on the starting battery. If we leave the anchor light on all night we're drawing from the battery that is supposed to start our engine (there's no hand-starting a BF130). Same goes if we leave electronics on by mistake (or just want them on). The idea of this scheme is to isolate the starting battery and protect it.

I would run all of the boat's 12-volt needs off of the house batteries. A benefit of this is if your electonics are on when you start the engine they won't drop off-line due to low voltage and don't get hit with the initial surge when the BF130 starts.

I think that if you are going to add a battery combiner it would be in place of the Engine Battery Switch since that is essentially what it does. So, in your drawing you would eliminate the Engine Battery Switch and the Running Light & Electronic panel (see above), also eliminate the cable from the EBS to the House Battery Switch. The BF130 main wiring harness would connect directly to the starting battery and the Battery Combiner would run from the positive terminal of the starting battery to the common post on the House Battery Switch. As soon as the voltage of the starting battery came up the Combiner would send power to the HBS and to whatever battery was selected.

The Combiner between the between the two house batteries is not a good idea in my opinion; having both batteries 'on-line' and charging off the BF130 is asking a bit much of the engine's alternator, especially if the batteries have been drawn down very much. This is one place where I think hands on management is called for so that the BF130 is only asked to charge one house battery at a time. The 'Both' position on the House Battery Switch shouldn't be used for the same reason.

So as a recap and to keep it simple, we end up with two isolated systems; one starting circuit with the BF130 connected directly to it's battery. The house system consists of the two house batteries, the distribution panel and the House Battery Switch which allows us to select which house battery is in use. The only connection between these two systems is the Battery Combiner between the starting battery and the House Battery Switch.

There is one more element we could incorporate into this system. That would be a cable between the positive terminal of the starting battery and the common post of the HBS (some route as the Battery Combiner runs) with an On/Off switch in-line. This becomes our 'parallel' switch and the switch would almost always be in the 'Off' position. 'On' would only be used for emergency purposes if the starting battery should cease to function. An alternate to hard wiring this line would be to have jumper cables aboard.

Les

From: LesLampman Sent: 11/21/2002 8:07 AM
These messages were moved from the Outboard Systems thread.

Les, after I swiched back to the lead-acid batt', I noticed my voltage was much higher, this last trip it was up to 16 volt's and the Furuno Sounder started beeping saying "voltage too high"
Back a couple months ago I was running that super spendy Gell-cell batt, the highest the voltage ever got was 14.6 it must have been the exta thick plates in that batt, keeping the voltage down. I hope I did not take too much life out of the new gell-cell battery before I went back to a lead/acid, marine/starting batt.

So I was wondering what was available for the F-115 Yamaha to (regulate) or do I need to worry? I also have a Optima Blue-top that I use for powering the dinghy, I recharge it while underway.

Thank's
Greg

From: Red Fox Sent: 11/19/2002 10:11 AM
Steve, was it you that mentioned a while back about getting a "regulater" for your 115 two stroke Yamaha? Any ifo would be good here. thnks

From: Redƒox Sent: 11/21/2002 1:51 PM
Moved and ignored! bummer! no moose for U

From: "Nancy H" Sent: 11/21/2002 7:15 PM
Greg,
A temporary fix is to turn on some cabin lights or running lights or
the stereo. This will use some of the excess amps the motor is putting out and should reduce the voltage. If you give it a try, let me know if it works.
Larry

From: Pat & Mary Sent: 11/23/2002 4:24 PM
Thanks for your thoughts, Les. Point well taken on almost everything, except not putting a combiner between the two house batteries. I don't understand why doing it this way might be too much for the engine's alternator. I thought the way the combiners work is that the second battery is not even hooked into the charging circuit until the first is charged, so the alternator will never "see" more than one battery in need of charging - first the engine battery, then, when it is charged, house battery #1, and then, when both the engine and house battery #1 are charged, house battery #2. Am I wong on this?

Patrick

From: Redƒox Sent: 11/25/2002 10:04 AM
Hi Larry, yes it did the trick, I had to run with the nav lights on. What really helped was putting around in the dinghy with the Optima battery. I had to ditch the portable jumper/starter box thingie I got from Costco, it just did not have the range I needed for extended exploring
I will have to assume there is no "regulator" one can enhance their outboard with?




From: LesLampman Sent: 12/1/2002 6:31 PM
Hi Patrick,

I'm really not ignoring you ... I'm not getting much time these days on the computer.

This is the verbage for the Combiner 50A model:

The Combiner 50 is a voltage-sensing relay (13.3 volts) which connects two batteries together when either is receiving a charge. When the charging ceases, the relay opens so that each battery operates independently. Supplemental battery banks can be added by using an additional combiner for each bank. You never have to worry about switching to "BOTH" when your engine is running and forgetting to switch back to save your starting battery from discharge when you stop.

I interpret this to mean that the alternator will in fact see the load of both house batteries when the BF130 is running and quite frankly I don't recommend that situation. This verbage indicates that the intent of the Combiner is to automatically substitute for the "all" or "both" position on a battery selector switch; a position I recommend against using in any but emergency start situations. With regard to the first combiner I took into account that the BF130 alternator wouldn't see much of a load from the starting battery as it will almost always be at or close to a full charge. In fact now that I've re-read this it occurs to me that with two combiners in the system that the BF130 would acutally see all three batteries when running.

Les

From: Pat & Mary Sent: 12/5/2002 4:58 PM
Hi Les,

Thanks once again for your reply. Never did think you were ignoring me - I don't even have my boat yet and you are in such tremendous demand on these CDory sites that I am tickled pink that you answer me at all!

Now that I read the Combiner 50 blurb again I realize that you are exactly right. Once again thanks for pulling me back onto the right road after I stray. Incidentally, it appears that West Marine has discontinued the Combiner 50 from their line. I looked at their e-catalogue to check it out again the other day and couldn't find it anywhere.

A couple more questions, however, and then I'll leave you alone (at least for a short time). Do you have any preference for any other combiner? If I decide to upgrade from the charger included with the factory shore power setup, can you suggest a suitable unit?

Many thanks, Les. You've been a great help to me!

Best wishes,

Patrick

From: stevej Sent: 12/6/2002 6:55 AM
Greg did some reading last night on Yamaha charging systems and found a spec. for the 2-stroke V4's and V6's. It is regulated and the range is 13.4 to 15 volts. I would think that the 4-stroke would be the same.
Better late than never
steve

From: LesLampman Sent: 12/6/2002 8:19 AM
Patrick,

Due to MSN's ridiculous system I lost a full reply to your post. I'll do it again but at the moment I'm out of time.

Les

From: Redƒox Sent: 12/6/2002 12:37 PM
Steve thanks, good info, gonna go out on her soon, so I'll keep that in mind on this cruise.
Greg

From: Fun Patrol Sent: 12/9/2002 9:06 AM
Les:

In post #1 you mentioned a "SSI" that costs $600 and must be some kind of refer or cooler. I can't wait to spend another $600 on the boat...what is it?

Roy

From: Fun Patrol Sent: 12/9/2002 9:26 AM
Optima batteries

Some additional info on the Optima batteries that Les mentioned. We have been running these in our off-road race cars for several years now. Our old lead/acid batteries would need to be replaced every 6 months or sooner for dependability. The usual killer in our application is the extreme....really extreme...shock and vibration. The Optima seems imune to all of this commotion, a feature that would bode well in a pounding boat. As these are designed primarily as a starting battery and have a very high CCA for their weight, we have been impressed with their ability to start our very hard starting modified GM 6.5 diesel race motor. It starts hard because of the very low compression designed in to allow for the humungo turbo. We use two optimas in parallel.

For deep cycle use, these have a pretty low amp-hour and reserve rating, but their life cycle is very good. Probably be better off with a true deep cycle of some sort. If you ever go to a diesel outboard that needs hefty cranking power, Optima would be a good answer. However, I think almost any battery, including those little motorcycle batteries in a case with cables and outlets, would start most small and medium sized outboards. In fact, I have a friend that uses a motorcycle battery as the starting battery for his Honda 90, and a larger group 24 or similar for the house side.

later....Roy

From: Pat & Mary Sent: 12/10/2002 3:13 PM
Les:

Sorry about the MSN foulup. I am, however, avidly awaiting your recommendations, not because I mean to bug you (which, of course, is what I am doing!), but because MY BOAT HAS ARRIVED AT CUTTER MARINE!!!!! So instead of feeling like an expectant father, I now feel like a new father, and the baby will soon be in need of rigging.

I'd like to add another question: Cutter are advising the installation of solargizers to minimize battery sulfation. They claim that their experience is that solargizers clearly improve battery performance and life. Do you agree?

Incidentally, I got the West Marine paper catalogue the other day, and the C-50 combiner was in it. Perhaps I just didn't look in the right place in the on-line catalogue.

Thanks in advance,

Patrick

From: LesLampman Sent: 12/11/2002 7:34 AM
Hi y'all,

Roy, the SSI is indeed a cooler. For what they get for the things they've got to use left over NASA parts but by all accounts they work really well.

Patrick, when I replied the other day I took too long (according to the MSN timer). When I clicked on "Send Message" I just got a message in return that said that the system had timed out and to go back. When I did it had erased the message I had been working on. Bummer!

Anyway, glad to hear your CD25 made it! What great news! Lemme see if I can reconstruct the gist of my message. Ok, I just re-read your last post and here's the short version:

The charger in the CD25 is fine. They're using a Guest 2610 which is a 3-stage, 10-amp charger. For the typical battery setup on a CD25 I think it will do just fine.

I don't know of an alternative to the combiner. The problem is that by definition it "combines" two batteries or put another way it electrically goes to 'Both' as if you changed the battery switch. I don't think that is something that ought to happen on an automatic basis across the house batteries.

In the real world the starting battery in a 3-battery setup like we're discussing is all but pure backup. The Engine Battery Switch could really be left on the House battery setting (in my drawing that would be position 2) all the time. The BF130 will start just fine from the house batteries unless they're discharged and since we have two and haven't placed the House Battery Switch in the 'Both' position one of them should be good. If not, changing the Engine Battery Switch to position 1 will get the BF130 fired up. So, with the Engine Battery Switch in the #2 position almost always that only leaves us dealing with the House Battery Switch for everyday use and they're we're simply choosing which battery we want to use or charge.

The Guest 2610 on the CD25 will charge both house batteries anytime there is 110v supplied to the charger. The charger is independent of the House Battery Switch and will chage both house batteries even if the switch is in the 'Off' position.

I would put the Combiner 50 between the 'Common' post on the House Battery Switch and the positive terminal of the Starting Battery. That way, regardless of which house battery you've selected, when running (charging) as soon as the voltage comes up to 13.3v the starting battery is going to receive a charge too; this would include when the 110v charger is powered up as long as the House Battery Switch is not set to 'Off'. Since, with the Engine Battery Switch set to position 2 most of the time, the Starting Battery is just 'hanging out' it won't take much to top it off when the Combiner does its thing.

I don't have a lot of experience with solargizers. We live in a part of the country where they would work best when wet ! I don't see where they could hurt anything but my gut level reaction is that if you go with AGM house batteries which don't have the sulfation problem they won't be necessary. Even with flooded lead-acid batteries the solargizers would only be necessary if the boat is left for long peroids of time and without a decent 3-stage charger running. Actually, this is where I like a charger like the TrueCharge 20 and 40 as it has a fourth stage for equalization of flooded batteries; again, not necessary with AGMs as they don't sulfate. So with the Guest 2610 charger standard on the CD25 and a couple of AGM house batteries you would be in great shape without adding the solargizers. You could also use an AGM for the starting battery (I'd use something like the Optima Blue Top) but in your system I believe it would nice (because of the low self-discharge rate and robust construction) but certainly not necessary.

Les

From: STIMPY'S DAD Sent: 1/13/2003 6:23 PM
HI Guys, Tyboo and / or LBL
HELP!!
The question of the day for me is " How do I connect the 4 ga wiring from the battery to the switch panels?" I decided to listen to both of you and went with the heavier 4 ga. Battery cable.
As Tyboo suggested I am installing a"C-Brat Senility Switch " on the main positive feed line coming into the cabin but I am a little unsure as to how to make the connections and or wire downsize to be able to transition to the switch panels.
Do I need to go to a fused connector and come off of it with the smaller 10 ga wire that can accomodate the female spade connector to the panel (for the + circuit) ?
How can I down size to the buss bar for the - circuit?????
Thanks, Doug on "STIMPY"


From: Mike Sent: 1/13/2003 6:59 PM
Doug -

Connect your 4 ga positive to one pole of the disconect switch, and come off the other pole on the switch with as many smaller gauge wires as you need to connect your panels. As long as you're going right from the switch to a fuse panel or breaker, another fusible link in between is not needed. That's how I did it. My switch has the one big feed cable on one side, and several smaller wires coming off the other. The only small wire on the "always hot" side of the disconnect goes to the automatic bilge pump circuit. Everything else goes dead when I turn the big switch.

I used 10 ga from the switched pole of the disconnect to the fuse panels. All you have to do is find some big ring connectors for smaller gauge wire. The only larger wire from that pole goes to the windlass circuit.

Using a large feed cable like you did is a good idea. After connecting the cable to one side of the big switch, you can consider the other pole to be the positiv post of your battery. For the negative cable, I just made a stud out of a 3/8" bolt and connected my ground feed cable to it. Then, just like the positive, I came off of the stud with smaller gauge wires.

Fun, ain't it?

Mike

From: Mike Sent: 1/13/2003 7:25 PM
Keep in mind, though, that I am a real gadget guy, and I like lots of switches and circuits to run them. One of these days I'll take some pictures of the switch/fuse panels I made and the wiring behind them. I am still afraid Les and Dusty will make fun of me, though.

I try to always use at least one wire size above what the spec sheets say for my circuits, but fuse according to recomendations. That way, the appliance can blow the fuse without the wiring even getting warm. The purpose of a fuse in a circuit is to protect the wiring, and if the fuse and wire are close to the same capacity, you can make a lot of heat before the fuse does its job. Less to worry about with the bigger wire, and it does not cost you anything in powering the circuit (in fact, it makes it more efficient by eliminating voltage drop).

If you haven't done it yet, it is a real good idea to add a circuit breaker (I use a 70 amp) in the positive cable as close to the battery as you can get it. The Blue Sea Systems breakers are very good. (The link is to a good picture and description of the breaker, not necessarily a good price.) If you get the type of breaker that is manually switchable, you have an additional disconnect back by the battery to use when working on the electrical system. This type of breaker is waterproof and sparkproof, so you can mount it anywhere. You still want to keep it inside a box or something to keep it dry and isolated so the exposed connections are protected.

A lot of this stuff is expensive to buy in the first place, but like anything else, if you buy good quality and better-than-adequate capacity the first time, it's good for a long time.

Still having fun?

From: Mike Sent: 1/13/2003 8:02 PM
OK, Doug - this might be more info than you asked for, but I loaded a couple pictures of my disconnect installation. The picture of the back of the switch shows how it is wired, and the photo of the front shows what it does.

That's it - I'm done now.

From: STIMPY'S DAD Sent: 1/13/2003 8:39 PM
Mike thanks for jumping in to help me, the information and pictures were just what I needed.

From: STIMPY'S DAD Sent: 1/13/2003 8:49 PM
Mike, I have been studying your pictures and will say that your workmanship is outstanding. Thanks again , Doug on "STIMPY"

From: LesLampman Sent: 1/15/2003 9:37 PM
Hi Mike,

Goodness, my first tech post in what seems like weeks!

I like what you've done; the reality is that it will go forever in all likelihood. But (you were waiting for that weren't you?)...try not to stack you connector rings on one post. As the salt air gets to them and they corrade or oxidize the yhave more resistance and generate more heat; also after a few Capt. Ahab adventures the pounding and vibration from the boat could loosen the stack and again form a higher resistance circuit. Better is using a Blue Seas Terminal Block like this so that the mombo cable comes in on the big stud and each of the panel feed wires comes off a separate screw. They also make a nice cover for this guy. I'm not sure I'd go through the trouble to change everything but if you're in the mood some day it would be a good project.

Les

From: Mike Sent: 1/16/2003 12:18 AM
Les -

Certainly can't argue that point. It makes a lot of sense, and it is simpler and cleaner, too. The local marine store has a full line of Blue Sea Systems stuff, so I will grab one the next time through.

Thanks,

Mike

From: Mike Sent: 1/21/2003 11:09 PM
Doug -

Somewhere you asked me about covers for the Blue Sea Systems circuit breakers. I have never seen a cover for those. But, if you promise not to make fun of me, here's an idea. Don't sell Tupperware short. Since you are mounting the breaker up under the gunnel where it won't be seen, you can get a small square plastic container, drill holes in the sides for the wires and seal them with caulk, put your breaker inside, and snap the lid on. Since it is out of sight, the UV won't get to it, and the thing will last for years. Simple, cheap, and waterproof. Sometimes the easy way is best.

I used a stainless steel instrument enclosure to protect the two breakers and the battery separator in my boat. You can see the thing in this picture between the hose and the fishing pole. Those boxes are hard to come by at work. The E&I guys grab them up when the take them out of service, and they never make it to the scrap pile. Otherwise I could get you one. (New ones are expensive.) I used PVC pipe as conduit back to the batteries, and forward into the cabin under the galley counter. Works for me, but it is visible. For just a single breaker, I would use the plastic box in a minute.

Ain't wiring fun?

Mike

From: Lynn Marie Sent: 1/22/2003 9:25 PM
I'm looking for some feedback on my wiring project when the new windlass arrives. Some of the photos I've seen show disconnect switches up in the cabin at the helm. Are the battery leads on these installations coming all the way up and then back to the engine or are they used as a disconnect for the panel only. Right now the battery selector switch for the Lynn Marie is back in the port lazeret where I believe the factory installed it. My plan is to replace the leads forward to accomidate the new power draw of all the equipment and install switches and breakers as needed up under the helm with whats already there.
Any thoughts?

From: Mike Sent: 1/22/2003 10:03 PM
Tim -

I ran 2 AWG marine cable from the house battery to the helm. The disconnect up front shuts off the feed from that battery only. The Honda is connected to the main battery, and it has no master disconnect. I did not change the Honda wiring at all, just the extra house battery system I added. The switch is neat for turning off everything inside the cabin at once. With the big wire (both + and -), I was able to safely connect the windlass wiring at the helm station.

Be sure and add a circuit breaker near the battery if you run big cables forward. Anything bigger than 8 ga will light the boat on fire before it melts itself in two. A dead short in the big cable, and the boat burns.

There is quite a bit of info in this thread about wires, breakers, and related subjects.

If you happen by and the cars are here, stop on in to look at the mess of wiring I did. It is so ugly it's kinda cute! I love wiring stuff up, you see.

Mike

From: Lynn Marie Sent: 1/24/2003 3:47 PM
Mike,
Thaks for the offer. We're headed up to The Dalles overnight and back tomorrow. If we get up that way Sunday I'll look for a car. If a pictures worth a thousand words then the real deal plus the master must be worth a million. I also want to check out the "house battery" system since ours is a straight two battery with "OFF,1,BOTH,2". That seems to be the old way of wiring andf I may want to change some of that while I'm pulling.
See you when I can. In the mean time I still have lots of cutting and bolting to do.
Tim

From: Chuck S Sent: 1/25/2003 5:17 AM
Nothing wrong with proven old technology.

If you connect diodes across the poles of your OFF-1-BOTH-2 battery switch you can switch it with impunity while the engine is running and not damage the alternator on the engine even if you turn it OFF. You'll also charge both batteries in any position. If you have engines (plural) you'll need to isolate their alternators as well. Diodes are "old technology" but they work well and are dirt cheap alterrnator protection.

The new technology is "better" and much more expensive. Better in quotes because your engine will continue to supply most of the amps regardless of battery selection or charge state and the more exotic systems really don't get many more amp hours into the battery in motorboats because the engines are running a great deal of time and a lower charge rate is just fine.

Sailboats which only run their engines leaving the dock and for tight maneuver spaces benefit more from the exotic systems because they need to pump massive amounts of amp hours back into their batteries from normal use. Battery capacity in the 300 amp hour range is common on sailboats in the under-30' range and it takes a couple of 8 hour days running the engine to recharge them even if only half discharged.

If you use a thick plate marine deep cycle battery for a house battery it can be used to start outboard engines in this class if the starting battery fails. Deep cycle and starting engines require different charging voltage curves for full charging and your engine won't supply the right curve for the deep cycle. Topping off this battery at home on the trailer with a good 3 or 4 stage charger will ensure it stays in peak condition for years.

You can also charge your boat battery(ies) from your truck's charging system while you make that several hour to where the big ones are biting. If you have a 7 pole connector on the back of the truck the 12v charge line should already there. Just takes the right connector and a bit of wire. The system on my Explorer, for example, will handle a 10a load easily in addition to trailer lights and electric brakes, and is relay isolated. If fed into the conter pole of the OFF-1-BOTH-2 switch the truck will put amp hours back into both of 'em no matter where the switch is set.

-- Chuck

From: Lynn Marie Sent: 1/31/2003 9:26 PM
Hi Les,
I have a question about some of your earlier posts. You talk about connecting the "starting battery" to the engine only and running everything else off of the house system. To date my plan was to also include the anchor windlass to the engine battery since they would/could have similar type use and since the windlass sould never be used unless the engine is already up and running. Have I let my thought process get to far ascew?
Also wondering if you can point me towards a good two battery diagram that includes a seperated system? I'm from the old school that used the number 1 battery on the odd calender day and the number 2 battery on even days. I like the new way better, I think, but not sure how to get it all hooked up. Also if it gets real expensive I may want to put it off till next winter since this years projects are installing the Sport Tabs and the windlass along with some interior joinery. Any thoughts on putting off the switch from the factory set-up?
Thanks for the continuing ed. work,
Tim

From: Chuck S Sent: 2/1/2003 5:48 AM
Tim --

Page 591 of the '02 West Marine catalog shows how this system works.
Three (3) switches and a battery combiner are involved.

The advantage is the battery interconnect switch (parallel switch in the
diagram) can be placed out of harms way (where your brother-in-law can't
diddle with it) and you'll never run out of starting power because you
ran the stereo and anchor lights all night. The battery combiner
charges both batteries when the engine is running.

If you use lots of amp hours with the engine off, such as when anchoring
out at night running the cabin lights and stereo, your house battery can
be a larger deep cycle battery rather than starting type. The small
outboards on most C-Dories will start off a deep cycle too if needed.
Key lock the interconnect switch if you have boys. Girls will leave it
alone if you tell them once!

Another reason for the 3 switch setup is with your instruments, etc.,
(driven off an isolated house battery) won't all blink off when you
start the engine. My old LORAN used to have to go thru it's entire 3 or
4 minute acquisition cycle every time this happened when using an
OFF-1-BOTH-2 switch.

-- Chuck


From: LesLampman Sent: 2/1/2003 6:19 AM
Hi Tim,

First, mine is just one opinion so use the ideas that make sense and round-file the others. My goal is the simplest system I can devise that still maintains the flexibility I want with a high likelihood of having at least one charged battery to start the eninge. The thought process, approach and terminology change a bit between a single or twin engine boat, or a boat with 4 versus 2 batteries.

If I remember correctly, you have a single main engine and two batteries. In this setup I would consider the two batteries equal and rather than 'starting' and 'house' I would just consider them 'Battery 1' and 'Battery 2'. My typical wiring scheme for your boat would be a single 1-both-2-off switch (optionally you could use 3 on/off switches) with the #1 post on the Battery Switch (BS) connect to the positive terminal of Battery 1 (B1) and the #2 post on the BS connected to the positive terminal of Battery #2 (B2). The negative terminals on the batteries are connected together. The positive lead of the main engine battery cable is connected to the Common Post of the BS; the negative lead to the negative terminal of the nearest battery (or bus bar if you're using one).

Now here's the part where we may differ...I connect ALL loads (with one exception) to the Common Post of the BS. Depending on the loads, and how many, I often use a bus bar so that I have one cable coming off the Common Post of the BS to the bus bar and then distribute the loads from there. The only exception to my "All Loads" rule is a single fused lead to an automatic bilge pump if fitted.

Here are my thoughts: Both batteries should be of equal capacity since we're going to use them as equals; I recommend good group 24 dual purpose batteries. Either battery can be used for any task aboard with the selection of that battery with the Battery Switch; so either one can be considered the 'house' battery or the 'starting' battery as needed. The Both (or All) position of the Battery Switch should never be used (ideally). With this setup you can run the windlass off of either battery; with the windlass hardwired to one battery only, you'd have to worry about keeping that battery 'up' before windlass use.

To take this system to the next level you could add a Link 20 battery monitor. This lets you track amp-hour usage so that a battery never falls below 50% discharge (it also tracks battery cycles, discharge rates, charge rates and a ton more stuff). It would also allow you to use some power from the second battery (say for longer stays) as you'll know how much power you've used and can be certain you'll have enough juice to start the main engine. In actuality, a 50% battery will start the BF75/90 just fine so the 'first' battery you swithed over from at its 50% level really becomes your backup 'starting' battery. Before you rely on this type of use make sure it works for you and it's only doable if you have a way of tracking amp-hour usage.

Hope this helps and doesn't confuse things more...

Les

From: LesLampman Sent: 2/1/2003 7:07 AM
Hi Chuck, Tim and all,

Keep in mind that the West Marine Advisors are primarily geared toward inboard powered boats (both powerboat and sail). Their typical wiring diagrams are not appropriate for outboard powered cruisers. For instance, a battery combiner has no place aboard an CD22 since there isn't an outboard out there (for the CD22) that has the charging capacity to handle that kind of load. Ditto for true deep cycle batteries; the moment these are put aboard one must accept the fact that a battery charger is necessary and that the engine(s) will not necessarily be able to keep the batteries charged in all circumstances.

They also recommend (even insist) that you must have two "banks" of batteries; one for starting and one for house. In reality, the CD22 hardly has any house loads (none compared to a typical 32' Bayliner) and a main engine that typically springs to life in just a few revolutions (much different than a cold diesel). The CD22 is better served with two of the same dual purpose batteries that the alternator on the main engine can handle...but only one at a time.

The 1-both-2-off switch is familar to just about every boater and serves the needs of a small outboard-powered boat well; the 3 on/off switch system being needlessly expensive and complex for the simple systems being used on the typical CD22. It's far more approporiate on a larger inboard cruiser.

For electonics to never power off (under all circimstances) during engine starts would mean having them connected to a battery other than the one being used to start the engine; this means a split system which is far more complex and expensive than necessary given the number (or lack of) systems aboard the CD22. Effective battery management with a small single alternator (or even two small alternators) means being able to deal with one battery at a time which it turn precludes utilizing a split system. That is why ALL loads should come off the Common Post of the Battery Switch. You then have complete control over which battery is being charged, which is being discharged and when everything is "off".

Les


From: Lynn Marie Sent: 2/2/2003 9:33 AM
Les,
Thanks for getting (and keeping) me on track. The whole idea makes good sence when laid out with all the information. I'm always a bit worried with a lot of what I find in print because of your comment of OB vs. inboard. That would be another reason I might consider if making a choice between twins or a single on a boat used for cruising or off shore fishing with lots of electical draw.
Again thanks for your help.
Tim

From: Chuck S Sent: 2/2/2003 9:52 AM
Les, that's where all my experience is: inboards and cruising sailboats!

We like to tie up and anchor out in "remote" areas and I expect our engine-off electrical useage will be fairly substantial at night. A good (vs. merely legal) anchor light will pull an amp (call it 10 amp hours per night) just by itself.

If we don't need a dedicated house battery and can effectively use a pair of dual purpose batteries it'll make life simplier. We're planning on both Great Lakes and Ohio River cruising this summer and don't want to have a non-starting engine in the morning. I could hand crank the olde Atomic 4, but don't see any provision for this on the Honda outboards.

-- Chuck

From: Y-NOT Sent: 2/2/2003 10:57 PM
Well from the sounds of thing I did mine all wrong.
I came start my outboard engine with the switch in the off position.
My starting battery is hooked up to the engine all the time, by turning my switch to position #1 I charge the house battery {dual purpose} position #2 is if at some time I add another battery, that way I can charge battery #1 or #2 seperate or I can switch to both and charge them at the same time.
The starting battery comes up quickly after starting the engine usually 20 - 30 minutes thats when I put the switch to battery #1 and let it charge along with the starting battery, seems to keep everything even and charged.
The problem with this set up is making sure that the switch is set to OFF after the engine is turned off to keep from discharging the start battery.
I don't have to worry about switching to off with the engine running and doing any damage to the charging circuit.
I did this switch after finding the way it was wired before by the last owner that even though the switch was off it was still pulling off the engine battery but would not allow it to be started in the off position, they had wired to the solinoid under the engine cover, this allowed current to flow out of the start battery to supply the house battery but disconected the battery from the starter motor.
Anyway this works well as long as you turn the switch off when stopped even my bumb brother in law can do this with very little instructions.

Tony

From: C-DOG_Ken Sent: 2/4/2003 6:25 PM
Hi, Les,

Thanks for taking so much time for such thorough explanations.

I use a 2 battery system, wired as you suggest, with everything coming off the main post on the 1 - all - 2 switch.

You mentioned that most outboards don't have the power to charge both batteries at the same time. I have an 18 amp, 254 v. alternator (probably pretty typical), and generally run switched to the "all" setting while running. If I have been trolling a long time on either the 1 or 2 setting, (5 -6 hours, and running other electronics), then I will switch to that battery on a long run, to "top off" that particular unit. Yet when just generally running, I have my switch on "All".

Is that not doing me any good, or is it just taking longer to get, or keep, both batteries charged?

Thanks for your help.

Ken