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What’s it like on lake powell lately?
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Foggy



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great minds and some with ultra fat wallets have long known there always are
advantages when others see only calamity.

Falling water levels and melting ice both expose millions of people to jeopardy
as well as expose new earth bed for old time prospecting.

The big boys are at the latter already:

https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/08/world/greenland-melting-mineral-mining-climate/index.html

Think of that...

Aye.

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ssobol



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wood Zeppelin wrote:
... In this case I think there is a lesson. The mentality at the time of the dam building craze was.. well.. a "craze". I think greed and gang mentality were at play. ...


I think there was some imputes for great construction projects during the early '30s as part of the recovery from the Great Depression (the New Deal and all that). Rather than just hand out money to support people out of work, infrastructure projects were created to kill two birds with one stone, give lots of people jobs and get stuff built. I'm sure that this led to some corner cutting and looking the other way during the justification phases of these projects.
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Wood Zeppelin



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Thataway,

I highly recommend checking out "Cadillac Desert", either in book form or the video documentary. Fascinating stuff that's right under our noses that most people don't know about. It's a four hour documentary, I watched it in three sittings... they talk about the era of dam building frenzy, etc, etc.

Cadillac Desert (YouTube)

Then there are chapters in the amazing book called "Emerald Mile" that talk more about Glen Canyon dam.

Here is an article about the fuzziness and inaccuracies of how they look at rainfall data:

https://coloradosun.com/2022/02/24/water-projections-too-rosy-lake-powell/

The information about the original analysis having errors was told to me by my friend who lives near Lake Powell and works for a land use advocacy non-profit in the area. I haven't checked the source on that, but it's a friend I know is deeply involved in the region as her career. Similar to the article above, "going under the hood" has found significant inaccuracies.[/url]

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oldguy83



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's worked for eighty plus years. Laughing
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thataway



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wood Zeppelin,
Quote:
I highly recommend checking out "Cadillac Desert", either in book form or the video documentary. Fascinating stuff that's right under our noses that most people don't know about. It's a four hour documentary, I watched it in three sittings... they talk about the era of dam building frenzy, etc, etc.
d

You answered none of my questions. I did review the film, which for the most part is excellent. I am very aware of the water issues in S. Calif. (N. Calif, and all of the Southwest.)

Could we go back to days before even the Spanish or Russians came to Calif? That was when S. Calif. began to change. I don't seen any fad, craze or building frenzy over the 100 year or so period when rivers were damed for various reasons. Glen Canyon Dam was put in place primarily for power generation. The damming of rivers still continues to this day.

If your point is that S. Calif. should have never been settled and developers should not have made profits, then I might agree with you. But the reality is Southern California went from 5,000 inhabitants when my great grandfather arrived in the 1860s as the Land Grants Attorney for Los Angeles to the population of about 29 million it is today.

Land speculators and persons who profit from land development are in business to make profits--greed, I don't know about that.

The article you cite only discusses the duration of 30 year cycles and dropping the relatively dry years of the prior cycles. Nothing to do with the construction of Glen Canyon or Boulder Dam. Rain is a minor factor in the hydrology of water flow in rivers in the American West. Snow pack is more a reliable measure.

Southern Calif. Arizona and Nevada will always be short of water--they are deserts. Yes, many exploited that land. Since the missionary period water has been in short supply and often mishandled.

I am not sure how any of this will impact the future of Lake Powell, Glen Canyon Dam or the Grand Canyon.

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Wood Zeppelin



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry- by "rainfall" I mean annual precipitation, which includes the snow.

Thataway - the answers are within the sources I posted. The damn building frenzy is mentioned in the books. I recall hearing that a very large proportion of all US dams were built within few decades. Because I don't remember what page or chapter, there's also this:

"The US went on its own dam-building frenzy between the 1920s and 1960s — before many of the full impacts of dams were well understood. Today, there are more than 79,000 dams across the country, and some have caused major problems. So, in recent decades, the US has removed about 1,000 of them, often at great expense.

The reasons varied. Some dams, by turning free-flowing rivers into stagnant reservoirs and disrupting flow and sediment regimes, ended up destroying whole ecosystems. The Elwha River in the Pacific Northwest, for instance, lost 90 percent of its salmon after being dammed up. Other dams turned out to be extremely expensive to maintain over the years, and many simply weren't worth the cost."

https://www.vox.com/2014/10/28/7083487/the-world-is-building-thousands-of-new-dams-is-that-really-a-good-idea
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thataway



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not only does one get into the issues of an area should be settled, where people are going to live, but how to generate power for what are now "necessities"(??) like air conditioning in S. Calif. Even today many dams are built to generate "clean energy"--which seems to be the goal of many environmentalists. You have the paradox of damming rivers vs the demand for flood control, water and power.

The massive dam building goes on all over the world currently. There are over 90,000 dams currently in the USA. Only a small number generate hydro power. (101 gigawatts; by retrofitting some current dams to produce hydropower, that could increase by 50 gigawatts.)

There are arguments of both sides of the issue. It is not at all black and white; or canyon vs lake. My preference is to have the canyon. But then I live in an area with a surplus of water, where all I need to do is drill a well about 240 feet deep and I am into a main aquifer under low pressure.

The coastal areas are trying to utilize desalinization plants--are they wise? How about a nuclear power generation using the waste heat to convert salt to fresh water?

It is just not a simple problem--and far from a craze.

Each visit to Lake Powell (11) we would read at least one book on the canyon and its history, impact etc before Glen Canyon Dam. See how the indigenous people utilize the water in the desert even today. Many communities do not have "running water". Go up San Juan Arm and talk to one of the Navajo who live in the area. Get their opinion.

Now today we are selling both our precious land but also water rights to foreign powers. Is this wise? How will history judge this? Can we really judge creation of Lake Powell today?
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ssobol



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thataway wrote:
... Even today many dams are built to generate "clean energy"--which seems to be the goal of many environmentalists. ...


If you consider the carbon released by the manufacture of all that concrete to build a dam, are they really all that "green"? Building the Hoover Dam released about 1.75 billion pounds of CO2.
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thataway



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssobol wrote:
thataway wrote:
... Even today many dams are built to generate "clean energy"--which seems to be the goal of many environmentalists. ...


If you consider the carbon released by the manufacture of all that concrete to build a dam, are they really all that "green"? Building the Hoover Dam released about 1.75 billion pounds of CO2.


The reason for quote marks around the "clean energy". Not many free lunches. The transport, the steel, the cranes, destruction of habitat and trees, all make it "non green"

however there are some small hydro plants which are truly low or non polluting after the manufacture of the turbine and pipes or waterwheel.
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jkidd



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bullfrog News: August 12, 2022
Dear Partners:
Future Lake Powell Ramp Operations This Season: A reminder to Lake Powell boaters - the Bullfrog North Ramp will remain operational for houseboats and larger vessels until lake levels reach 3529 ft. and operational for smaller vessels until elevation 3525 ft. Please be aware that water levels are declining. The lake level as of August 11 was 3534.32. Current Bureau of Reclamation “most probable” projections indicate the lake could reach 3529.71 in August 2022 and 3526.75 as early as September: https://www.usbr.gov/lc/region/g4000/24mo.pdf. BOR currently predicts a low of 3505.66 by March 2023. The Stateline Auxiliary Ramp near Page, Ariz. is operational for motorized vessels of all sizes and can be extended to elevation 3,490 ft., if necessary. Please stay tuned for further announcements.

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jkidd



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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2023 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As of today water is just touching the bottom of the Halls boat ramp.

https://wayneswords.net/threads/its-wet-halls-ramp.8687/#post-92735
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colbysmith



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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2023 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jkidd wrote:
As of today water is just touching the bottom of the Halls boat ramp.

https://wayneswords.net/threads/its-wet-halls-ramp.8687/#post-92735


There might still be hope to use Halls again. Smile Also I'm getting an error msg stating:
Access denied
Error code 1020

You do not have access to wayneswords.net.

The site owner may have set restrictions that prevent you from accessing the site.

I have a registered login, so assume there is a problem with the site's server tonight.
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jkidd



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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2023 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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colbysmith



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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2023 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Link is working again! Smile
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jkidd



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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gregory Natural Bridge is officially under water again.

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