power steering assist units?

[thataway]

PM sent--the volume of the lines on a C Dory 22 with the 5/16" standard nylon tubing is about 147 cu in. for 1/2" tubing it would be 377 cu inches of volume of fluid--the only thing which would change is fluid friction. The volume of pump remains (1.4 cu inch) and the volume of the cylinder remains the same--8 cu inches. My personal finding is that the 5/16 tubing works well in my C Dory 22 and the Caracal. Easy control with brodie knob of light touch.

The only boat I have owned which had 1/2" tubing is was the 62 footer we took to Europe and back--which had dual stations and a huge (10 sq foot) rudder. We were running an auto pilot pump sized for a 90 foot tug boat.

[Sunbeam]

I have no knowledge of why this would be, but interestingly, when I was talking to the folks at Teleflex a couple of weeks ago, and asking about the various options for mixing and matching (say if I didn't want to just go with a pre-packaged Baystar kit), I'm pretty sure they said that one upgrade they might suggest was going with Seastar lines (vs. the Baystar tubing). I think I asked why/how that made a difference, and I don't remember exactly what they said (or if they gave a reason) but just that it would make for a better feel. Again, not sure why, but...?

(I'm slightly hedging the details because when they called me back I was in someone else's car on the way to some errands and had no way to make notes.)

[thataway]

Before this thread is too far high jacked; The OP in this thread asked about what would reduce his fatigue. The 25 usually comes with a SeaStar steering--probably the 1.7 cu inch pump. Yes, going up in size for the tubing might help, but it is a fairly major expense, (probably in the $250 range plus depending on what hydraulic fitting shops are available.) The Sea Star has semi 3/8" custom tubing, where as the Bay Star comes with a pre cut 5/16" tubing. To up grade the Bay Star (not relevant for the PO) to the 3/8" tubing, would bring the cost up close to what the Sea Star would cost. Thus if a person who had a 22 with mechanical steering, and wanted to have larger 3/8 tubing, the Sea Star pump would be a better buy.

Pedromo had related his experience with going from the standard 22 hydraulic helm, (probably 5/16 nylon tubing to 1/2"--which I think would be overkill for the C Dory 22). It is possible that going to 1/2" for the Sea Star in the C Dory 25, might help--but not as much as the auto pilot or power assist (power assist would seem like over kill also for the fatigue issue). There is a very good reason that almost all long distance voyagers use auto pilots of some form--certainly steering any boat for 7 hours every day is fatigue inducing.

[colbysmith]

Bringing this thread back to life as I'm delving into my stiff steering. Compared to my 22, the steering on my 25 seems much stiffer. Both boats had the SeaStar Hydraulic steering systems, with the regular helms, standard size ram and 1000 psi flexible hose. Specifically on my 25 it currently has the Sea Star Helm HH5271-3 1.7cu.in. and Sea Star Ram H5358 8.34cu.in. Hoses are 1000 psi. Helms are rated at 1000 psi, and the ram 1500 psi. I have two helms (cabin and cockpit) and after purchasing the boat, added the Garmin Reactor 40 autopilot with smart pump. Initially I had an issue with when turning the helm starboard slowly, no response. I'd have to "snap it" or turn it quickly to get it to respond. Eventually I learned from a SeaStar engineer that this was due to the valves in the regular helms, and why SeaStar recommended using their Pro helms in dual helm installations. Since I had already purchased two brand new helms, I had no desire to spend more money on the Pro's, and rather just installed shutoff valves in the two pressure lines at the cockpit helm. That resolved that issue. However, I still have relatively stiff steering, compared to what I remember on my 22, and compared to a 23 Ranger Tug's steering. Tom from C-Otter has driven my 25, and says it feels the same as his steering. Ken on Sea Angel has told me he can easily turn his helm with a finger. I have the Yami 150, and a Yami 9.9 kicker. The kicker is connected via a manual cable steering linkage hooked in to the Main's steering rod. I have disconnected the kicker steering, but that makes only a little difference. The steering is a little easier when static. Steering is hardest on plane, but I would expect that. I have bled the system numerous times, and confident there is no air in the system. I have the bubble purge system, and when that is connected with both ram bleed ports open, the helm is much easier to turn. But relative to with the bleed ports closed. So, is the 25 with hydraulic steering typically stiff? Think of power steering in a car where your pump has gone out. You can still steer, but it's much harder. I did recently learn of the power assist units that the originator of this post asked about. But would rather not go that direction. I am about to order some new 1500 psi hoses, as they have more reinforcement in the sidewalls and don't expand or stretch as much. I'm also seriously considering going to the Pro helms, and would need new hoses for that anyway. Lastly, while I have not visually been able to locate any kinks or restrictions in the current hoses, the cost to replace the hoses would be the lowest cost in doing anymore changes to the system at this point, and would alleviate any bad hose I can't visually see.

So, for all other 25 owners reading this with hydraulic steering, does anyone currently have the power assist? For the others, do you find your boats rather stiff to steer, almost like a car whose power steering has gone out? DO you have the regular helm or the Pro helm? And finally, the pro helm comes in 1.7, 2.0 and 2.4 cu.in. also, I believe. Should I stay with the 1.7, or would going to the larger capacity make for easier steering? Colby

[ssobol]

[colbysmith]

[colbysmith]

I have ordered new, 1500 psi, hoses. My hope is that the steering stiffness problem is due to a restriction (kink?) somewhere in the hoses that I have not been able to visually find. The 1500 psi hoses will also allow me to retrofit with the Pro helms if I decide to do that later. Colby

[starcrafttom]

Well just got here and skimmed the old and the new and did not see one thing that will cause fatigue in a steering system and its not located anywhere on the steering system. ????

Its torque. all outboard motors, well all motors really, cause an amount of torque in the direction of spin of the prop. This is off set by steering trim tab. Its that little tab facing down just above your prop. If that is not adjusted correctly it will cause the motor to turn one way of the other. Its sole purpose counter the effects of torque caused by the rotation of the prop/ motor. It is not the cure all for a sticky cable or a bad pump but it is a factor that needs to be addressed and eliminated before you chase your tail looking at other far more expensive systems. Just a thought that was not being talked about. Hope that helps someone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cliAokbII0

[ssobol]

[colbysmith]

Tom, thanks for your suggestion. But my issue isn't with the trim tab. I've pretty much got that tweaked for the best trim at my regular fast cruise. (That is, the motor turns equally hard in either direction...) I'm really hoping it is a restriction in the line somewhere. Maybe a kink in behind a panel somewhere. Guess I'll know for sure when I pull the old hoses out to replace with the new ones. There have been a few others speak of stiff steering with the 25's also. Could just be the nature of the beast. I do have an autopilot and many times just resort to letting it drive. But I do think hydraulic steering should work a lot easier. Colby

[alainP]

Colby, I don't think it is typical of 25s
Mine steered very hard in one direction when I first got the boat but that was quickly taken care of with a power bleed. Ever since steering with the Seastar is smoothl as silk in both directions. Could it be that it is more challenging to get 100% of the air out in a dual steering set up?

[colbysmith]

[ssobol]

[colbysmith]