New materials to help stop lithium-ion battery fires, explos

BrentB

https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2019/Q4/new-materials-to-help-stop-lithium-ion-battery-fires,-explosions-and-improve-battery-performance.html

New materials to help stop lithium-ion battery fires, explosions and improve battery performance

journey on · Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:21 pm Post subject:

Wow! This process of infusing/something ceramic nano-particles promises a 5x reduction in volume? We now can start our engine with a battery the size of a package of cigarettes. And reduce the amount of space that the house batteries use by an order of magnitude.

Am I correct?

Boris

robhwa

To quote "these composite materials potentially enable the use of pure lithium metal anodes, to increment the volumetric capacity density of existing batteries by a factor of about five"

Sounds like a "stretch" on a press release to me. In terms of safety, one can imagine a pure lithium battery broken open coming into contact with water.

Pure lithium in water

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxqe_ZOwsHs

a whole lot of excess cold war sodium dumped into Lake Lenore, Washington

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HY7mTCMvpEM

I'm not saying it couldn't be made relatively safe. We'll see.

thataway · Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:11 pm Post subject:

Boris we can already start our car engines with a pack about the size of several packs of cigarettes. There are already "air planes" which are in production with li ion batteries as their only means of power. There are a number of practical issues.

From "Battery University" (reading all of their articles is a great way to learn about the various types of batteries and how to care for them)

Specifically Lithium batteries

There have been a number of studies using various compounds used as "electrolytes" in a variety of li ion battery types. All seem to have advantages, and disadvantages. This is one of them. Here are the 5 major Li ion types used in production currently. Some are safer than others. I am comfortable sleeping with 200 amp hours of LiFePO4 batteries under my bunk on the boat.

Lithium-Cobalt Oxide Battery
Used mostly in handheld electronics (Cell phones, Laptops and Cameras)
Highest energy density (110-190) Wh/kg
Thermal runaway at 302°F

Lithium-Titanate Battery
Can operate at very low temp (-40°C)
Rapid charge and discharge
Voltage only 2.4v vs 3.7 volts (lead acid is 2.15 volts)
Lower energy density (30-110) Wh/kg[/i)

Lithium-Iron Phosphate Battery
[i]very low risk of overheating and fire.
Low volumetric capacity
Used in boats, RV's power tools and medical equipment
Longer-life and inherently safe
Lower Energy Density (95-140) Wh/kg
Thermal runaway at 518°F

Lithium-Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide Battery
Longer life and inherent safety
Cobalt is scarce and expensive
Less prone to heating
Used in Power tools, e-bikes and electric power trains
Lower energy density (95-130) Wh/kg

Lithium-Manganese Oxide Battery
Lower cost
Longer life and inherently safe
Used in Hybrid Vehicles, Cell phones, Laptops
High discharge rates
Lower energy density (110-120) Wh/kg

There are a host of other experimental Li batteries, including the Lithium Silicone battery with an energy density of 650 Wh/litre, more than 2x the current energy density

There are also a number of ways to make the battery safer. I have several individual cells (The 18650 battery is the heart of most commercial battery systems--and it costs considerably more, if there is a current limiting/thermal sensitive circuit in each cell, vs a circuit for a group of batteries, or no limiting circuits at all.)

Micahbigsur@msn.com · Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:10 pm Post subject:

Hi Bob, I had to give up the Lifeline glass mats that I have preferred because of the Suzuki's warranty policy. I don't much like having to add water and am adding a watering system.
So what would the bottom line be for adding a safe 220-250 AH house bank (I have 220 now) in size, weight and cost. My size limit is 9" h x22" d x 18" w. I know you like yours can they take the higher consistent charge voltage of a Suzuki?
I thought cost was still prohibitive, and I have already broken the bank on my CD upgrade. (literally everything on the boat).
Maybe next summer's project?
Thanks!

BrentB · Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:28 pm Post subject:

Robert H. Wilkinson · Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:47 pm Post subject:

thataway · Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:53 pm Post subject:

I just finished reading "Bloomberg Business week" most recent issue on "2020". The biggest challenge for the electrical industry is batteries. California is mandating all houses built after Jan 1 2020 have elements of solar roofs. Currently there are times when the electrical utilities have surplus power, and they have to cut off the solar homes from usage. If we had reliable, cheap and compact batteries, plus reliable and inexpensive inverters this would help to solve that problem.

Micahbigsur@msn.com · Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:39 pm Post subject:

Thanks Bob, I knew you could give me the details I need, I have a ProMariner ProNautic 40 which has a lot of charging profiles, I will check it out. I still hesitate to go against Suzuki's recommendation, I can't afford to have a problem in the middle of nowhere in Baja, so your battery to battery charger off the start battery only leaves me with the one easiest lead acid battery to access.
In our short overnight tests our 390 watts of solar and 220 AHs of house seem to work well enough, but now I need to add the watermaker (8 A an hr maybe 4 hrs every 2 days) to the mix to go along with the fridge, freezer, lights and device chargers. Factor in a couple of cloudy norther days that I can't travel in into the mix, and I may need more house AHs (I was happy with 600 AHs of LifeLines on the sailboat) so I guess if I spend this much to upgrade next year when we get back I want more, maybe it's just my greedy overkill mentality speaking.
Also with our utility grid blackouts now starting to be common in California I want to basically convert my house to an inverter charger solar system next year and 10 year batteries sound good.
Thanks for all your help.

Micahbigsur@msn.com · Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:11 pm Post subject:

Robert H. The Suzuki's charge at something like 15 volts.
I like the recombiner caps but they add to much extra height to the batteries which have to slide under the 9.75 high rear deck opening of our 03 CD 25.

Robert H. Wilkinson · Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:21 pm Post subject:

Micahbigsur@msn.com · Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:01 am Post subject:

Rob, I know some of the vagaries of deep cycle batteries having spent winters in Mexico for years anchored out a lot on boats I put solar systems on. I looked up some of these lifepo4 batteries and the cycles seem to add up to anywhere from 5-10 years worth depending.
I grew up off the grid as a child with Aladdin lamps as there was no solar (or our ubiquitous Toyota trucks) but my parents couldn't make the back to the land thing work in the early 50's. Now our place in Big Sur has 4 solar run off grid houses with mine soon to follow as our electric Bill's have gone up dramatically.
My brother is a local electrical contractor and uses the big tall (L6?) Batteries on the systems he puts in in Big Sur.

thataway · Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:59 am Post subject:

The Rolls/Surgette have long been the "gold standard" of batteries. The problem with them in the C Dory is weight--one 6V 440 amp hour battery is 122#, so two are going to be 244#. Steve Dashew has long advocated (and still does) "Traction batteries" which are 2.2 volt cells--6 to make a 12 volt bank--which weigh in at 185# for each battery. This means 1110 lbs for a 12 volt bank. The lightness, as well as the deep discharge/ high charge capacity of the LiFEPO4 is what makes them attractive for RV and boating use.

Micahbigsur@msn.com · Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:29 am Post subject:

Yes the Rolls batteries were tempting when I was setting up my sailboats 600AH bank, but I went with the LifeLine glass mats. I replaced the cheap Chinese glass mats on the Tug also. I loved them, no corrosive or explosive gasses emitted and true zero maintenance. They will go 10 years if you treat them right, their biggest need is to be 100% charged within any 5 cycles, if you don't keep track of this, people have had new ones fail on a voyage from the Panama Canal to Tahiti, and they are expensive.
Bob I will check in with you next summer after we get back from Mexico to see how your lifepo4's are doing vs. how my remote fill system works out which seems just a bit dodgy for my location.
Steve Dashew definitely has a lot of out of the box strong opinions, but many of them are compromised by sailors real world needs, a 60 foot skinny boat is fast and safe but a chubby 45 footer has the same room and you can easily find a a less expensive marina berth for it, and that sail plan for an older couple.....you start thinking maybe you don't need to average 200 miles a day and 100-150 isn't so bad!
Thanks again all for this discussion!

thataway · Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:58 pm Post subject:

Steve Dashew gave up on the sailboats a long time ago. He is still cruising in his 80's on his power boat Cochise. First time I met Steve was on the podium of Ensenada race almost 50 years ago . We had both won our class. He was on his 32‐foot D Class catamaran, Beowulf V. He was looking for crew to sail with him in the TransPac on Beowulf: Velcro sleeping bags to the tramp, a cooler with dry ice and sandwiches. Figured he would make it in 5 days....! I figured he was either a genius or crazy! It is the former.