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Kingmann
Joined: 22 Nov 2016 Posts: 18 City/Region: Kettle Falls
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2000
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Eva
Photos: Eva
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Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:05 am Post subject: Moving to a smaller outboard? |
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I have a 22’ cruiser with 90 HP. It is carbuerted (4). I am thinking of a new motor with electronic ignition. I would like to get a lighter engine but how low can I go before getting into trouble with plan and cruising at low rpms? One of my goals is to have the boat plane at lower speeds. _________________ Love the northwest |
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ssobol
Joined: 27 Oct 2012 Posts: 3374 City/Region: SW Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: SoBELLE
Photos: SoBelle
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Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:28 am Post subject: |
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The planing speed is determined mostly by the hull shape and the boat gross weight. A lighter engine will reduce the boat weight and therefore the planing speed and the power required to get to that speed. But the change in overall weight of the boat by going from a 90 hp to a smaller engine is not that much. The Honda 75 weighs the same as the 90. Going to the Honda 60 will save you about 100 pounds. That's about 2% of the weight of a typically loaded 22 cruiser. You probably won't notice the change in planing speed. |
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hardee
Joined: 30 Oct 2006 Posts: 12633 City/Region: Sequim
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sleepy-C
Photos: SleepyC
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Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:10 am Post subject: |
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Unless you are planning on doing all your cruising at hull speeds I would not plan on going to a 60hp outboard. You might be able to plane a 22 with a 60, but that would be for a very light boat. (2 small people on board, maybe a sack lunch and a fly casting reel.) I run twin 40's for 80 HP. I would not want anything less than that for power.
I know there are some 22's out there that are running 70 hp, but not many. In 14 years I have seen a couple. If I were repowering it would be to 50's (x2).
A typical planning speed for a 22 Cruiser is 9-10 knots. Maybe 8 with trim tabs or a Permatrim. Those are both options you might consider. OR, you may need to go to a different, lighter engine with the same power rating.
Harvey
SleepyC
_________________ Though in our sleep we are not conscious of our activity or surroundings, we should not, in our wakefulness, be unconscious of our sleep. |
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DavidM
Joined: 24 Dec 2017 Posts: 196 City/Region: Punta Gorda
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2006
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
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Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:17 am Post subject: |
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Consider the Yamaha 4 cycle 70 hp outboard. It is just 1 liter so it is light- 258 lbs.
I can't speak to whether it will plane a CD 22, but I strongly suspect it would do just fine. It planes my Pompano 23 nicely at 15 mph at 4,600 rpm while propped to reach 6,000 at wot.
David |
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Sea Wolf
Joined: 01 Nov 2003 Posts: 8650 City/Region: Redding
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 1987
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sea Wolf
Photos: Sea Wolf
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Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:38 am Post subject: |
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Here's my two cents:
The lighter engine approach is valid, but of diminishing returns.
Also, as you accumulate time with the boat, "stuff" you add for safety, functionality, convenience, and whatever .... eventually loads up the weight factor against you. Especially if you'e into cruising or fishing.
Here's what I'd do for an engine choice instead. Might seem counter-intuitive at first, but think about it!
https://boattest.com/engine-review/Evinrude/18500074_E-TEC-90-H-O-_2014
Good Luck!
Joe. _________________ Sea Wolf, C-Brat #31
Lake Shasta, California
"Most of my money I spent on boats and women. The rest I squandered'. " -Annonymous |
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DavidM
Joined: 24 Dec 2017 Posts: 196 City/Region: Punta Gorda
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2006
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
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Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:08 am Post subject: |
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I too like the Evinrude ETEC's, but the under 150 hp versions are still the old Gen 1 engines. The newly designed Gen 2 engines (150 hp plus) beat the 4 cycle competitors in most catagories, particularly torque for quick planing and fuel consumption.
The older designed 90 hp ETECs don't do as well. They probably do ok in torque and acceleration but are far short of their competitors in fuel consumption.
Let's hope that Evinrude comes out with lower hp Gen 2 versions soon.
David |
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pcg
Joined: 31 Aug 2018 Posts: 408 City/Region: Sherwood
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 1999
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Quest
Photos: pcg
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Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:17 am Post subject: |
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DavidM wrote: |
The older designed 90 hp ETECs don't do as well. They probably do ok in torque and acceleration but are far short of their competitors in fuel consumption.
| Are you saying that the E-TEC 90 is "far short of [EFI Honda 90] in fuel consumption"?
DavidM wrote: |
Let's hope that Evinrude comes out with lower hp Gen 2 versions soon.
| At Seattle boat show, Evinrude rep told me that there are no plans to bring Gen 2 to anything less than 150 hp (available this spring) and that Gen 2 motors are substantially heavier then Gen 1.
My impression, after talking to multiple dealers and reading multiple forums, is that the E-TEC 90 is as good or better then the Honda 90 in fuel consumption, has slightly better low end torque, is 70 lbs. lighter, is easier and less costly to maintain, but is more expensive and a bit noisier than the Honda. _________________ Paul |
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Foggy
Joined: 01 Aug 2013 Posts: 1521 City/Region: Traverse City; Northern Lake Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2014
C-Dory Model: 26 Venture
Vessel Name: Boatless in Boating Paradise
Photos: W B Nod
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Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:43 am Post subject: |
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I agree with Joe. Boats, like most people, gain weight with time.
That means a smaller engine will be less effective in its ability to plane the boat.
Moreover, the smaller engine will have to 'work' harder, have less economy and
maybe shorter life than one with more HP.
I've enjoyed and not regretted having larger engines working less, staying cool
and thumping along with the ability to scoot when desired. May not be possible
with too much downsizing.
Aye. _________________ "I don't want any cake" - said no one ever.
If someone tells you they don't eat cake, unfriend them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life. |
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NewMoon
Joined: 21 Dec 2008 Posts: 430 City/Region: Holladay
State or Province: UT
C-Dory Year: 1991
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Cindy Sea
Photos: Cindy Sea
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Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:57 am Post subject: |
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We repowered our CD22 from 70hp to 90hp (both 2-cycle Yamaha), after our first cruise in the San Juans and Gulf Islands. With all the stuff we carried for extended cruising and fishing, and a full 58 gal fuel tank, the 70 struggled to plane. The 90 was much better - ran without straining through a two month SE AK cruise with even more stuff.
If you will be carrying a lot of stuff, I would think 90 would be the smallest you would want. _________________ Richard Cook
Dream Catcher (Nordic Tug 37, 2016 to present)
New Moon (Bounty 257, 1998 to 2016)
Cindy Sea (CD 22 Cruiser, from 1991 to 1998)
"Cruising in a Big Way" |
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DavidM
Joined: 24 Dec 2017 Posts: 196 City/Region: Punta Gorda
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2006
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
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Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:13 am Post subject: |
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pcg wrote: | Are you saying that the E-TEC 90 is "far short of [EFI Honda 90] in fuel consumption"?
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Yes. Even though outboard manufacturer's never give fuel consumption data unlike diesels, Boattest.com does test boats with these engines. Their test data shows that the Evinrude Etec 90 uses 11.0 gph at wot to make 90 hp whereas the Honda uses 9.6 gph to make 90 hp. Wot fuel consumption doesn't tell the whole story throughout the power band and Gen 2 Etecs do much better at mid rpms but they also roughly equal an equivalent Honda at wot.
So my conclusion is that the Evinrude Gen 1 Etec 90 uses about 15% more fuel than the Honda.
BTW here is the Boattest test of the CD 22 with the Honda 90: https://www.boattest.com/review/c-dory/1455_22-cruiser
Looking at that data tells me that 70 hp would definitely give you a cruise in the mid teens mph but if you want to cruise in the low 20s then go with 90 hp.
David |
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pcg
Joined: 31 Aug 2018 Posts: 408 City/Region: Sherwood
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 1999
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Quest
Photos: pcg
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Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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DavidM wrote: | Boattest.com does test boats with these engines. Their test data shows that the Evinrude Etec 90 uses 11.0 gph at wot to make 90 hp whereas the Honda uses 9.6 gph to make 90 hp.
David |
Different motor...
I believe that was a test of the ETEC 90 H.O., which is a four cylinder motor designed for high performance and is as heavy as the Honda 90.
The standard ETC 90, which is lauded for its fuel economy, is a three cylinder motor and is 70 lbs. lighter. I don't think Boattest has tested that motor. |
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ssobol
Joined: 27 Oct 2012 Posts: 3374 City/Region: SW Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: SoBELLE
Photos: SoBelle
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Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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Some people on other forums point out that while the fuel cost for the 2-cycle might be less, the $30/gal oil that is required can negate a lot of those savings. I guess you get some additional savings by not having to do oil changes, but how much does that really save (I do them myself)?
FWIW, Boattest seems to do their tests using boats that weigh a lot less than a typical CD-22 cruiser. |
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pcg
Joined: 31 Aug 2018 Posts: 408 City/Region: Sherwood
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 1999
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Quest
Photos: pcg
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Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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ssobol wrote: | I guess you get some additional savings by not having to do oil changes, but how much does that really save (I do them myself)? | Well I'm out on a limb here because I own neither an ETEC nor a Honda motor. I'm just reporting what I've learned and I hope people will correct me if I'm wrong, preferably before I buy a new outboard.
My understanding is that other savings come from a simple once every three year maintenance for the ETEC vs. a more complex (more $) annual maintenance for the Honda. Also the ETECs basically automatically winterize themselves with a simple throttle maneuver. |
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ssobol
Joined: 27 Oct 2012 Posts: 3374 City/Region: SW Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: SoBELLE
Photos: SoBelle
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Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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pcg wrote: | ...
My understanding is that other savings come from a simple once every three year maintenance for the ETEC vs. a more complex (more $) annual maintenance for the Honda. Also the ETECs basically automatically winterize themselves with a simple throttle maneuver. |
Other than changing the engine oil, I can't think of anything needed on a 4-cycle that is not needed on a 2-cycle. AFAIK, you still need to change the fuel filters, the lower unit oil, the water pump impeller, and occasionally the spark plugs. It only takes a couple of hours (if you work slowly).
My Honda automatically winterizes itself. Just tilt it to the vertical and let the water run out. Done. I guess it might depend on what kind of winter you have.
The Etec 300 service interval may also only apply to motors used in fresh water. |
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Chester
Joined: 04 Sep 2006 Posts: 1176 City/Region: home
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sold to lovely couple
Photos: Chester
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Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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My 22 planes at ~10 knots which is typical I think. It does have Doel fins on the AV plates.
Asking to plane at an even lower speed is not realistic IMO.
Underpowering a boat is an expensive, disappointing mistake. The engine will struggle and have to turn high RPMs at whatever speed you can make.
Will the 70 hp Yamaha work? It is a highly tuned engine that makes a lot of power for it's displacement. This means the power comes in at high RPM and it likely has a weak low and mid range. I suspect it would be an unhappy marriage with your 22. |
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