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Kicker with both tiller and remote control

 
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pcg



Joined: 31 Aug 2018
Posts: 125
City/Region: Sherwood
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 1999
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:18 am    Post subject: Kicker with both tiller and remote control Reply with quote

I’m contemplating a dual-use clamp-on kicker motor for my 22’ Cruiser and wonder if I can have the best of both worlds. I’m looking at a 6hp rope-start Tohatsu with integrated fuel tank.

The first scenario is on the transom, as a minimal backup in case the main outboard fails. I'd really like to control this motor from the helm. This means a tie bar for steering and a remote control for throttle and shift.

The second scenario is to power a dinghy. For that I need a tiller, and a means to easily disconnect the tie bar and the remote helm control.

After doing an Internet search it’s not clear to me if one can have remote controls and still retain the tiller. Has anyone had experience with this? Were you able to get the best of both worlds- controlling the kicker on the transom from the helm, and controlling it on the dinghy via a tiller?

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srbaum



Joined: 30 Aug 2010
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City/Region: Portsmouth
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C-Dory Year: 2001
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Osprey
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul,

I mess with outboards for a (bad) hobby... Tohatsu/Nissan/Mercury/newer Evinrude, are all the same engine in the 4,5,6 HP range. I have 6 of the engines that you are interested in and just went in my shop to consider your interest.

All of the above outboards have locations to install remote steering, throttle and shift. I do not see a means of achieving both, as the shift and throttle cable must be connected to the shift mechanism and the carb, throttle mechanism directly. The linkage is not designed to have two cables to each at the same time and it is not beefy engine to add an extra set of cables to each of these mechanisms at the same time. These are very simple engines and all of the attachments that control things are very simple as well.

Please feel free to ask more questions and if you want photos of the moving parts, let me know.

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Steve Baum
Homeport of Portsmouth, VA
OSPREY (Ex Mister Sea) 2000 22 C-Dory 2010 - Sold 3/19
OSPREY (Ex ADITI) 2007 26 Cape Cruiser 2018
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colbysmith



Joined: 02 Oct 2011
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City/Region: Madison
State or Province: WI
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Midnight Flyer
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the Tohatsu 6hp kicker on my boat. I would not imagine putting a remote on it. However, I have seen a neat system that allows you to control the speed, although you can not shift with it. Tom Schulte off of C-Otter can jump in here with the brand of that unit. I also have a tie rod that I can connect between my main and my kicker if I desire steerage. However, using the main as a rudder with the kicker locked down, works well also. The 6hp can push my CD-22 at hull speed of about 4 kts. I don't have a dinghy at this time, but imagine the 6hp would work well on a larger dinghy. Colby
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MikeR



Joined: 21 Apr 2013
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State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2016
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Big-C
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like Steve, I too enjoy playing with small outboards - I have a fleet of about 8 ranging in size from 2.5 to 15 hp which I use on my 10' C-Dory, 12' Valco, 9' Achilles, 12' Kaboat, and a couple other inflatables. I've used both my 6hp Suzuki short shaft and 6 hp Tohatsu SailPro as kickers on my 22. I don't fish, I use them both exactly as you describe - for emergency backup and as a motor for the dinghy once at my destination (in the case of the short shaft Suzuki).

As a dinghy motor you really want a short shaft, and for emergency backup on the 22, the short shaft works fine in calm waters. The Tohatsu 6hp Sail Pro is a great kicker for the 22, with its large diameter, low-pitch prop and 6A charging. But it's only available as long-shaft or XL shaft, and the low pitch prop wouldn't be good on a dinghy that you wish to plane. So you'd probably be better off with the standard 6 hp Tohatsu if you want to run it on your dinghy.

6 hp is as large as I would go for dual-purpose, and even now I have mostly discontinued the practice of moving the outboard over and favor just leaving the kicker in place and bringing along one of my other small outboards, either another 6 or a 2.5 hp Suzuki which is super light. For me, it's just a lot easier to not mess with the kicker, and I've had a couple of mishaps while moving it, for example dinging the prop into the boat and scratching the gelcoat. But it is definitely doable, and a good option if you need to minimize space or weight. As a mostly single cruiser, neither are an issue for me so it's usually just as easy to bring along another outboard for the dinghy.

On the 22, I really like to keep things simple, and actually prefer not to have controls on the kicker. Again, I don't fish, so it's not really necessary, and the controls or tie rod would just be another thing to mess with during the tranfer from big boat to small boat. At least a couple of times a year I will cruise around for a couple of hours on the 6 hp (now the Tohatsu SailPro is the only kicker I use). I just set the speed and direction, then go inside, close the door, and steer from the warmth of the cabin while using the main engine as a rudder. It doesn't take much! Here I'm making a full circle exploring the relatively small bay of James Island while cruising on the 6. Note that the direction of the kicker will be offset slightly just to go straight, since the kicker is mounted off center.


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Phil Barnes



Joined: 20 Jul 2010
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City/Region: Colorado /San Juan Islands
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C-Dory Year: 1991
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Swan-C
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Troll Master has units that are wired or remote for throttle control on a kicker. They also sell a servo that allows steering using the remote control but I imagine that when adding that you might lose some portability if you want to move the motor to the dinghy. As for shifting, I think that still requires one to be at the transom unless you install a full cable remote system, which means that you again lose portability if you want to move the kicker to the dinghy. Some trade offs whichever way you go.

We had a long run on the 9.9 hp on the 22 when we lost the main engine this last summer. Two days worth of running actually. I steered from the helm with the bar between the main and the kicker and my wife ran the throttle and the shift when needed. When we had clear seas ahead we cranked up the kicker and were both inside. If things got busy my wife went back to the kicker so she could control the throttle and shift as needed. Not convenient but it worked well enough. Managed to dock and get fuel, anchor overnight and dock at our destination without incident but I would not recommend it for other than get home type use. Thinking about installing the troll master so I could at least steer and control the throttle from the helm if I had that situation again.
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have used small motors as both kickers and dinghy motors. As I aged, we went to the Garhauer Davit to pick up the motor and move from transom to dinghy. (Same davit used to put dinghy on top of boat, or lift heavy items aboard.). The Tohatsu weight is 55#--the Merc 2 stroke 3.5 I use is 30#. The Tohatsu 4,5 and 6 are all the same block--so more HP occurs at the higher speeds.

Using one of the speed controls, either wired or wireless such as Trollmaster is an option. You would lock the kicker ahead and steer with the main engine as a rudder. It is not difficult to make a linkage plate for the kicker, and put a linkage between the main and kicker--this can be removed with one quick release pin. If you want to shift--such as when docking, then go to the stern, use the tiller and controls. The short shafts used as kickers do not work as well in reverse as the longer shafts, because of backwash from the hull. (Even with an articulating bracket which sets the motor back--which is what I use).

As noted above, the short shaft is best for the dinghy; Long Shaft does not run well as higher speeds, and may be difficult to get all of the way up when beaching in the dinghy.

However, when using the motor as a kicker--how often do you really have to change speed? Perhaps if fishing and getting that trolling speed--then the Trollmaster, I troll, or like works fine. (most of these remote trolling speed devices are made for 8 to 15 hp engines. They have been used on the Tohatsu way 6 hp. These are just Radio Control aircraft/car control motors.). I have not done it, but I conceptually cannot see why you should not be able to use the servo motor and the remote tiller or lever throttle control.

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Bob Austin
Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
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pcg



Joined: 31 Aug 2018
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you all, for all of this great information!
Lots to think about and this is very helpful.
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kennharriet



Joined: 22 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the same setup as Mike above with the Tohatsu 6hp long shaft as a kicker. I think I got the tie bar from Cabelas and quick attach it whenever using the kicker. I have used the kicker a few times to get to safety. Once when the thermostat stuck and caused the main to overheat and a couple times when I spun the prop on the main.

We use the Suzi 2.5hp on our Alaska Series dingy. Has anyone tried using the Suzi 2.5hp as a kicker on their 22? As much as I like the Tohatsu, it would be nice to reduce that weight and do double duty with one kicker/dingy motor.
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't recall using the 2.5 Suzuki ion the 22, but I did on the 25. It gave about as much speed as my 3.5 2 stroke Mercury. That was just about 3 knots in calm water. I would expect about the same for the 22--where I have used the 3.5.
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jennykatz



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:40 pm    Post subject: 2.5 suzuki Reply with quote

I wonder if the 2.5 Suzuki. Would push the CC23 venture I would have to get a move able transom plate because of the short shaft Jim
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srbaum



Joined: 30 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim,
In answer to your question, a 2.5 will push your boat. The problem comes, if there is any wind, current or wave action. Once the WX picks up, the 2.5 will not overcome the natural forces that are generated externally. Your boat becomes such a huge sail, that more horse power will be needed just to keep your boat moving in a forward direction.
Aside from the many outboards that I own and mess with, I get the benefit of testing them on various boats (power and sail). I can tell you first had, that if the wind is blowing 15 to 20 kts, you will be fortunate to get by with a 6 HP (with the high thrust prop).
My note here, is not an opinion, it is fact and I have tried the many variables and still have found that the only way to proceed in any kind of wind and wave action (at displacement speed), is to have enough power (with the prop in the water, not coming out of it as the wave goes by), to overcome the windage that your boat creates.
I too am getting ready to rig my new boat for a backup outboard. I have purchased a 9.9 Honda with the high thrust prop on it. Even this option is meager for the windage created by the 26... Additionally I may install a Permatrim or other device on the lower unit to aid in maximizing available thrust.
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Steve Baum
Homeport of Portsmouth, VA
OSPREY (Ex Mister Sea) 2000 22 C-Dory 2010
OSPREY (Ex ADITI) 2007 26 Cape Cruiser 2018
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kennharriet



Joined: 22 Jan 2009
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C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That makes good sense Steve. Thanks for sharing your experience and wisdom. One of my favorite sayings: “Good judgement comes from experience. Most experience comes from bad judgment”. Ken
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My goal with a dinghy motor kicker is to get steerage way on, and work the boat to a safe place. It is not to push the boat into wind and seas. Many years ago, I pushed a 26' Owen's Sea Skiff (350 cu in inboard--so dragging a good sized prop) for a number of miles to its slip in Alamitos Bay with a 2 hp Johnson--probably one of the worse small outboards made. The Suzuki 4 stroke 2.5 has a better prop and more thrust that that little eggbeater. But there is no question that it would not push into 20 knots and seas.

As you go up in hp from the 8 to 9.9 high thrust--you then have to go to the 25 hp to really gain much. I don't know if many remember the old "Seagull" outboard motors--very primitive, and swung large props. They were common as dinghy motors and on sailboats in the 50's and 60's. These came in 4 to 8 hp--(62 and 102 cc displacement) and some sizable boats were pushed by them. (into waves and winds). (There were a few "Seagulls" produced in the 80's which were worse than the earlier models.)

For a true kicker where you are going offshore--where no aid is available,--the larger the prop, lower the gear box, and low pitch the better. I would choose the 8 to 9.9 hp, "sail drive". Same for a trolling "kicker", except I might choose a slightly higher pitch.
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