water leaking into cockpit through rubrail bolts

[dgeorges]

Recently upgraded from a CD16 Angler to a great 2006 CD22 Cruiser.

This particular model has a rub-rail attached by bolts and nuts on the inside of the cabin. The bolts are spaced approximately 16" on center along the entire rub rail. On the inside, the factory simply covered the nylock nuts with 5200 after tightening them down. Over time, the nuts have loosened up and are not accessible due to the 5200 covering them. Over time, the bolts have loosened and minor leaks have developed allowing small amounts of water to leak into the cabin. I have identified 12 of these leaks, and they are all above the water line.

I first removed the rubber piece and found it to be in good shape, and I toghtened all of the bolts on the metal rub rail. this solved some of the leaks, and I sealed the leaks at the bolts with more 5200. I feel that this will not solve the issue over time.

I still have approx. 6 leaks via minor cracks in the hull leaking water into the cabin. The cracks are not major, but are continuous. The leaks occur when it rains.

How do I fix this? Epoxy? Fiberglass? Seems like a surface fix will be temporary, so how do you fix a minor through the hull leak on a CDory so that the water doesn't damage the hull?

Should I pull the rub-rail frame and reset all of the bolts/nuts so that the cracks can also be fixed from the outside?

Thanks

[srbaum]

OPA!,
The quick and dirty fix is to just focus on removing and reinstalling the places that have apparent leaks. Bed the fastener with a good bedding caulk and do it again, in the future, when other fasteners leak.

The best solution, is to remove all fasteners, remove the rub rail completely, remove all old caulk and clean everything. Next, where holes are too big. Slightly chamfer the exterior of the hole and clean this area well, to remove any remaining debris. Tape all surfaces around the bad holes and using two part epoxy and a bit of micro balloon filler, wood flower, or other general epoxy fillers, mix epoxy to a peanut butter consistency and fill the hole. Place tape over the back side of the hole, to keep the epoxy from running out. Once the epoxy has been placed in the hole, place tape over the front off the hole to keep it from running out on the outside until cured. Re-drill new holes for the fasteners and chamfer the exterior of each hole slightly, to aid in preventing future spider cracking.

Install the aluminum rub rail. Liberally bed each fastener and don't snug up the fasteners until all fasteners in the side that you are working on have been installed.

Regarding the rubber insert, scrub it and remove all debris. Place it in a bucket of hot soapy water and leave the tail end in the hot water as you walk along. The soapy water will act as a lubricant and make installation easier. You will need an aid, like a narrow putty knife, but do use a plastic one, so as not to cut the rubber, or scratch the anodizing from the aluminum rub rail. The rubber will be longer and hang out about 6" at the stern, when you start at the bow, due to stretching, while installing it. Do not cut this tail end for a few months, as a bit of this will retract into the rub rail over time.

As to bedding compounds, use a quality marine product that will remain pliable once cured and that can be removed in the future. 3M5200 should only be used if you NEVER want something to come apart, so it really has limited use in most of our boat repair and maintenance applications. Lastly, silicone bedding should not be used as it will de-bond itself from the fiberglass and the fasteners over time and you will have a leak again...

As to fasteners, the best solution is to install 316 grade stainless steel screws, with a flat washer and a nylock nut on the inside. I am in Spain at the moment, so I cannot quote you the fastener length and diameter, but when I did my rub rail, 8 years ago, I was able to use the same length machine screws, except in the stern and at the bow, where they are longer, due to the additional fiberglass layup. The machine screws should be long enough, so that at least one full thread is exposed on the inboard side of the nylock nuts, once they are snugged up.

As to tape, I use blue painters tape for most all work. Duct tape will only be needed for the few moments needed to hold the rub rail in place for the removal/installation process. Just get the duct tape off a ASAP, as the glue from the tape will require solvent to remove it if not removed within the limits of your work session.

Note, you will need a helper throughout this repair, as you will need someone on each side of the fasteners and also when removing or installing the aluminum rub rail extrusion, to prevent it from getting bent. Use tape to hold the rub rail in place during the final steps of removing old fasteners, or when initially installing the rub rail, to aid in keeping it in place, while working on it.

[dgeorges]

WOW.

Fabulous, helpful, superb post. HUGE THANKS.


I was headed in the same direction, but had not thought out the details as you have. I am intending to work per your suggestions which seem like common sense, especially since I intend to keep the boat a long time.

Obviously, this will be a warm weather type of project.

I find it interesting that a CBRAT from VA would respond to my post. I purchased the boat in Oct of 2018 (currently named "C Tour") from a broker in Deale, MD and and the boat was registered in VA. I had a professional marine survey performed and the boat was found to be in great shape. Somehow the leaks were missed.

What I was especially shocked about was the tremendous amount of black mold all over the boat! Unbelievable! The surveyor left that off of his survey as well, and the broker said nothing to me about it either. Do you Easterners live with that mold all year? I was able to get rid of the mold with judicious use of Trisodium phosphate (aka TSP)[/i]. Bleach removed the black stains and we're all clean and shiny now. The mold had completely encrusted the gas tank area (tanks removed and area cleaned), the two cockpit wells, and under the two storage areas on the side gunnels.

The motor under the cowling was completely enshrouded in mold, and a variety of dark out of the way areas throughout the boat inside and out.

The rub rail area was especially infested with black mold and algae. By shear luck, I used the same method that you suggested to remove, clean, and re-install the rub rail. Their was a LOT of debris under and attached to the rubber. A good pressure wash and TSP/soapy water bath did the trick on the aluminum, and did not affect the gelcoat.

Cheers and my heartfelt thanks. Still trying to sell my great CD16 Angler OPA! I wish she would go to a good home.

D

[thataway]

I have never seen a boat from the factory with bolts and nuts holding the rub rail (actually covers the hull to deck joint) in place. The pop rivets are used because they are faster--and many times will not leak for many years. Also it is far better cosmetically on the inside--when some compound is placed over the inside. To my knowledge this was not 5200. (I have owned several C Dory of that vintage.)I strongly suspect that a prior owner did thus "repair".

Where are these cracks? Do they go thru to the cabin? Or is this just the hull to dock joint? Why did the prior repair fail?--and was there something which made the repair necessary? The hull to deck joint is glassed over on the inside of the hull--and is one of the strongest in the industry. I am suspicious that the boat may have been abused if it has developed substantial cracking.

You now have a major job removing all of that 5200. That must be done before any further repair is done.

Srbaum's suggestion is probably the way to go, with a few suggestions: If there really are cracks from the boat being slammed against a piling etc. I probably would grind them out--and rebuild the area with mat and cloth--fairing and then gel coating.

I make my filler with epoxy differently in an area of potential high stress--like the rub rail (granting that srbaum's method seems to be working well). I avoid wood flower because there are better materials for the exterior of the boat--and microbaloons under areas of stress, since they will eventually develop some cracks of their own.. I prefer Cabosil and high density filler in equal parts to the peanut butter consistency with epoxy resin.

I would bed the entire rail in LifeCaulk "Life Seal"--and use the same on each bolt. This will remain flexible.

Keep us appraised with photos of your repairs--and some now would help clarify the "cracks".

[dgeorges]

Thanks for the sage advice, Doc.

Your challenge questions are important, and I will get to the bottom of it all when warmer weather allows. It's in the 30's and 20's here in IL already (and eventually headed to single digits) and this type of repair work can't progress in the cold.

I will solve the issue, document, and post to help others.

Cheers

[srbaum]

OPA!

You are welcome.

When I get back to the States, I am going to make an effort to write the rub rail repair procedure using a "word document" format and post it as an image in the brat site. The reason for doing this is I have already talked many through this same procedure and the info needs to be more readily available.

As Dr. Bob says, the factory used rivets to install the rub rail, because it is fast
And inexpensive. The problem with the aluminum rivets is they corrode over time and the head falls off, then the rub rail become loose. My boat, like yours had some handyman install a few screws and nuts to the areas where the rivets initially failed. It only took a few hours of hard underway time for more of the rivet heads fall off. I did not want to only repair the ones that fell off, as the others were only shortly behind...

If you run across any issues when you get rolling on this task, feel free to call at 757-477-1453.

[Jack in Alaska]

The rub rail on my 2005 26' ProAngler was loose and leaking when I purchased the boat in Fla. The surveyor missed it as well as other poor construction techniques.
I repaired the rub rail myself using S.S. bolts, washers and locking nuts all bedded in 5200. Ok after 6 yrs.
My boat is just finishing, up in an Anchorage boat repair shop, getting a $20k fix on a soggy transom and hull.
The major leaking was from poor sealing of the 12 SS bolts holding the Armstrong bracket to the transom.

The repair man said he has repaired all models of fiberglass hulls.......Boston Whalers, Skagits, Sea Sports, Osprey etc.

[dgeorges]

Thanks SR and Jack.

Your comments and guidance are awesome.

I dug out one of the bolts out from the 5200 (inside the cabin), and found a SS screw head and a zinc washer staring back at me. I suspect all the rest of the rub rail anchor points are the same. Oh well, guess I'll be busy when it warms up again in the spring.

SR: sorry for the loss of your boat. May the thief suffer dearly at the hands of Poseidon.

Cheers,

D

[BrentB]

Here is an article on removing 5200

https://www.boatingmag.com/marine-solvents-for-removing-5200