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hardee



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a program on Discovery Channel tonight "Rancher, Farmer and Fisherman" brings additional information about Ecological and Environmental responsibility of resource use. Their fishermen are the commercial fishermen of the Gulf Coast and the fish in question is the Red Snapper but the process is all the same, you have to work with nature not against it or the resource goes away.

Harvey
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a interesting tid bit from a article that should put to rest any propaganda about colonization.

Quote:
She says 7.5 million Atlantic salmon have been released here since the 1940s, when some people actually thought it would be a good idea to establish populations of them here. None survived. The National Marine Fisheries Service (NMFS) has assured the state that interbreeding or establishing new populations isn’t an issue. When penned salmon escape,” Bouta says, “they tend to stay near the pen. And they’re good eating.” So fishermen, granted a special season, are quite happy to catch the escapees. Some risks may be exaggerated in popular imagination. .


http://crosscut.com/2016/08/salmon-farming-on-the-rise-in-washington/

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hardee



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From one of the links in the posted article, this section about where the Atlantic salmon go, once out of the pens.

Quote:
“John Volpe, a fisheries ecologist at the University of Alberta, has been swimming rivers with snorkel and mask to document the spread of Atlantic salmon and their offspring.

"In the majority of rivers, I find Atlantic salmon," Volpe said. "We know they are out there; we just don't know how many, or what to do about them."


His research focuses on how Atlantic salmon can colonize, if given a chance. It has terrified the U.S. neighbors to the north. Alaskan officials banned fish farms in 1990 to protect their wild fishery.

The following is from a link in the posted article. It doesn’t seem to “put to rest any propaganda about colonization.”

And from an article in the Seattle Times: “Farmed salmon ‘heading to every river in Puget Sound’”
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/environment/farmed-salmon-heading-to-every-river-in-puget-sound/



The following is an article from the LA Times, and is linked to in the “Salmon Farming on the Rise in Washington” by Daniel Jack Chasan. This article was posted in the previous thread.

Article: Fish Farms Become Feedlots of the Sea
By: Kenneth R. Weiss
Of: Times Staff Writer from Port McNeill, BC

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-me-salmon9dec09-story.html


The following is from a link in the article you posted.

Quote:
“IF you bought a salmon filet in the supermarket recently or ordered one in a restaurant, chances are it was born in a plastic tray here, or a place just like it.

Instead of streaking through the ocean or leaping up rocky streams, it spent three years like a marine couch potato, circling lazily in pens, fattening up on pellets of salmon chow.

It was vaccinated as a small fry to survive the diseases that race through these oceanic feedlots, acres of net-covered pens tethered offshore. It was likely dosed with antibiotics to ward off infection or fed pesticides to shed a beard of bloodsucking sea lice.

For that rich, pink hue, the fish was given a steady diet of synthetic pigment. Without it, the flesh of these caged salmon would be an unappetizing, pale gray. ….. “


Continuing….

Quote:
"Industrial fish farming raises many of the same concerns about chemicals and pollutants that are associated with feedlot cattle and factory chicken farms. So far, however, government scientists worry less about the effects of antibiotics, pesticides and artificial dyes on human health than they do about damage to the marine environment.

"They're like floating pig farms," said Daniel Pauly, professor of fisheries at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver. "They consume a tremendous amount of highly concentrated protein pellets and they make a terrific mess."

Fish wastes and uneaten feed smother the sea floor beneath these farms, generating bacteria that consume oxygen vital to shellfish and other bottom-dwelling sea creatures."


And further,…

Quote:
“Disease and parasites, which would normally exist in relatively low levels in fish scattered around the oceans, can run rampant in densely packed fish farms.

"Pesticides fed to the fish and toxic copper sulfate used to keep nets free of algae are building up in sea-floor sediments. Antibiotics have created resistant strains of disease that infect both wild and domesticated fish.

"Clouds of sea lice, incubated by captive fish on farms, swarm wild salmon as they swim past on their migration to the ocean.

"We are not taking strain off wild fisheries. We are adding to it," Naylor said. "This cannot be sustained forever."


And farther down ….

Quote:
“Five international companies -- three of them based in Norway -- control most of the existing farms….In Norway, parasites have so devastated wild fish that the government poisoned all aquatic life in dozens of rivers and streams in an effort to re-boot the ecological system.

"The Norwegian companies are transferring the same operations here that have been used in Europe," said Pauly, the fisheries professor. "So we can infer that every mistake that has been done in Norway and Scotland will be replicated here." Dale Blackburn, vice president of West Coast operations for Norwegian-based Stolt Sea Farm, said his staff works very closely with its counterparts in Norway. But, he said, "It's ridiculous to think we don't learn from our mistakes and transfer technology blindly."

Still, more than a dozen farms in British Columbia have been stricken by infectious hematopoietic necrosis, a virus that attacks the kidneys and spleen of fish.

Jeanine Siemens, manager of a Stolt farm, said, "It was really hard for me and the crew" to oversee the killing of 900,000 young salmon last August because of a viral outbreak.

Grieg Seafood recently got an emergency permit from the Canadian government to dump in the Pacific 900 tons of salmon killed by a toxic algae bloom. The emergency? The weight of the dead fish threatened to sink the entire farm. Farms are typically required to bury the dead in landfills to protect wild marine life and the environment.”



The article goes on and on, and shows nothing good can come out of an open pen fish farm industry, except dollars in the coffers of those who are paid to make very bad environmental and ecological decisions.

Personally, I think open pen fish farms are not the way to go, for many reasons. ( I happen to believe that land based, aquaculture, in controlled effluent pens, with recycling and monitoring can be a good thing, much like current hatchery type systems, could be not only acceptable but good, would work.) I know I can’t make decisions for anyone else. And, I support others right to their own opinions and they can base them on whatever input they want.

Seems Tom and I don’t agree and that’s OK. I still think he is a great guy, a good fisherman, and a friend. Pretty sure we can agree to disagree, and support our rights to have and present our own differing opinions.

It has been a good learning experience for me here, Thanks to those who participated and to the Admin guys for some latitude.

Harvey
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SENSEI



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it is so sad when a topic gets hijacked. this was about fishing for Atlantic salmon and now is a debate on the problems or not associated with the Atlantic salmon has taken over. I could care less about the whys and why not of fish farming and just eat salmon of any kind. specially smoked !!!!!!!
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hardee



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roger, et al, Sorry for my part in the hijack. I usually try not to do that.

Now back to the regularly scheduled topic.

Enjoy the fishing and good luck in the catching.

Harvey
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Marco Flamingo



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hardee wrote:
Dilution to pollution is the solution


Dilution of pollution is the delusion. Reduction of population is the solution. The only solution.

Uncomfortable topic. Let's just eat some smoked pen-raised genetically modified salmonish fish.

Mark
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starcrafttom



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have baked and smoked Salmon this last week and all of it has tasted good. I dont know if they are still catching them anymore. most we saw of the last day were starting to starve. All the stomachs were very empty.

Cant wait for the next time it happens.
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hardee



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom, how close can you fish to active working pens? Up in BC, I could get within about 20 feet of the pens, close enough to toss a line into, BUT, there was always somebody there who would run out and take my picture. I would always smile and wave.

Harvey
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starcrafttom



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not fishing the pens but the shoreline near by.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is an article from the LA Times, 9/3/2017. There's a pic that doesn't show, but the rest of the article is there

Salmon spill was larger than thought

More than 160,000 nonnative Atlantics escaped from a pen ‘due for replacement.’

RILEY STARKS of Lummi Island Wild shows three of the farm-raised Atlantic salmon, bottom, alongside healthy wild Pacific salmon in Point Williams, Wash. (Dean Rutz Seattle Times)

By Rick Anderson
SEATTLE — Documents filed with state regulators show that a fish farm that broke apart Aug. 19 in the San Juan Islands released more than 160,000 farm-raised Atlantic salmon into Washington state waters — far more than the original estimate — and that the holding pen for the fish was “due for complete replacement.”

The Canadian company that operates the farm originally reported that “several thousand” nonnative Atlantics had escaped into the Salish Sea, the ecosystem that runs from the Strait of Georgia in British Columbia to the southernmost waters of Puget Sound in Washington state, home of the wild Pacific salmon.

The company also initially said that unusually strong currents, triggered by the moon during the solar eclipse, had caused the pen to break open.
The company, Cooke Aquaculture Pacific, later backed off the linking of the failure to the eclipse. But records filed by the company with the state Department of Natural Resources and the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers indicate that the 30-year-old floating farm’s failure was probably the combination of a strong underwater current winning out over a weakened anchoring system that was supposed to keep the pen in place.

According to a permit application filed in February by Cooke Aquaculture Pacific in anticipation of replacing the three-pen floating farm off Cypress Island, the system was corroding, rusting and “nearing the end of its serviceable life.”

Cooke, a subsidiary of seafood giant Cooke Aquaculture of Canada, also was planning to reposition the farm “to align it with the prevailing tidal currents at the site.”

The fish containment nets, mooring points and net pen structure were under heavy drag loads from the strong Salish currents, the company said.
The accident prompted state and Native tribal officials to declare a fish emergency. They fear the commercially bred nonnative salmon will spread disease and weaken Pacific stocks through crossbreeding.

The state has invited anglers and netters to catch as many Atlantics as they choose, while tribal fishers have been flooding the zone in hopes of lessening the threat of an invasive species in hallowed Pacific salmon feeding grounds.
“Tribal, commercial and recreational fishers continue to recapture fish that escaped the enclosure and Washington’s Department of Fish and Wildlife is collecting data on those catches,” Cooke said in an update Friday.

A company official had no further comment when reached Saturday. As The Times reported Aug. 24, Cooke was aware its pens were vulnerable, stating in a news release that it had “applied for permits to allow us to strengthen and update the Cypress site even before the existing fish were harvested out.”

Cooke’s latest numbers show that 142,176 salmon were recently extracted from the damaged and now-empty pen. The other 162,824 of the 305,000 Atlantics went off into the Salish.

Some have since been fished out from as far away as coastal Vancouver Island and Seattle.

The fish were about to be harvested from the pen and sold to restaurants or turned into seafood products. Cooke planned to then replace and upgrade the pen farm, starting this month and finishing in December.

Instead, the company is now in the process of sending the recovered fish to a recycling plant and piling the pen’s twisted, rusting remains onto a barge to be hauled away. Cooke purchased the farm and all other entities of Icicle Seafoods of Seattle a year ago for an undisclosed amount.

Cooke's replacement plan is also on hold while the state completes its investigation into the spill. A planned expansion to another farm Cooke owns on the Strait of Juan de Fuca, one of eight Cooke farm operations in Washington state, remains in limbo as well.

In its Friday update, Cooke officials said that daily water-quality samplings at the spill site north of Anacortes, Wash., “show no adverse effects. Results are being provided to the Unified Incident Command,” consisting of state, tribal and company personnel overseeing the spill aftermath.

When the spill first occurred, there was no mention of the weakened condition of the farm.

As Cooke put it in an initial news release, “exceptionally high tides and currents coinciding with this week’s solar eclipse” led to the escape of “several thousand” Atlantic salmon. Critics said the farm had withstood even higher tides and stronger flows in recent months, and a revised release was issued two days later blaming the tide and current but not the sun or the moon.

The company also issued a revised estimate of the fish that swam away: 5,000, maybe 6,000.

In the February application to replace the farm through a $1.4-million makeover, Cooke officials wrote that “the current condition of the existing fish pen structure can be described as ‘used and nearing the end of serviceable life.’ The existing steel net pen structure has been in service for approximately 16 years in the marine environment and is due for complete replacement.

“Corrosion on the metal walkway grating and substructures is beginning to accelerate. The metal hinge joints in some areas are showing signs of excess wear. Complete replacement of the floating steel net pen structure with a newly manufactured one is considered a ‘best management practice’ for the safe containment of the cultured fish stocks.”

Steel net pen systems in the marine environment are subject to the corrosive effects of salt water and to metal fatigue from the constant wave energy, storms and the “extreme forces” of tidal currents, the company said.

Anderson is a special correspondent.

Boris, not a special correspondent


Last edited by journey on on Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Marco Flamingo



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hardee wrote:
From one of the links in the posted article, this section about where the Atlantic salmon go, once out of the pens.

Quote:
“John Volpe, a fisheries ecologist at the University of Alberta, has been swimming rivers with snorkel and mask to document the spread of Atlantic salmon and their offspring.

"In the majority of rivers, I find Atlantic salmon," Volpe said. "We know they are out there; we just don't know how many, or what to do about them."


His research focuses on how Atlantic salmon can colonize, if given a chance. It has terrified the U.S. neighbors to the north. Alaskan officials banned fish farms in 1990 to protect their wild fishery.

The following is from a link in the posted article. It doesn’t seem to “put to rest any propaganda about colonization.”

And from an article in the Seattle Times: “Farmed salmon ‘heading to every river in Puget Sound’”
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/environment/farmed-salmon-heading-to-every-river-in-puget-sound/



The following is an article from the LA Times, and is linked to in the “Salmon Farming on the Rise in Washington” by Daniel Jack Chasan. This article was posted in the previous thread.

Article: Fish Farms Become Feedlots of the Sea
By: Kenneth R. Weiss
Of: Times Staff Writer from Port McNeill, BC

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-me-salmon9dec09-story.html


The following is from a link in the article you posted.

Quote:
“IF you bought a salmon filet in the supermarket recently or ordered one in a restaurant, chances are it was born in a plastic tray here, or a place just like it.

Instead of streaking through the ocean or leaping up rocky streams, it spent three years like a marine couch potato, circling lazily in pens, fattening up on pellets of salmon chow.

It was vaccinated as a small fry to survive the diseases that race through these oceanic feedlots, acres of net-covered pens tethered offshore. It was likely dosed with antibiotics to ward off infection or fed pesticides to shed a beard of bloodsucking sea lice.

For that rich, pink hue, the fish was given a steady diet of synthetic pigment. Without it, the flesh of these caged salmon would be an unappetizing, pale gray. ….. “


Continuing….

Quote:
"Industrial fish farming raises many of the same concerns about chemicals and pollutants that are associated with feedlot cattle and factory chicken farms. So far, however, government scientists worry less about the effects of antibiotics, pesticides and artificial dyes on human health than they do about damage to the marine environment.

"They're like floating pig farms," said Daniel Pauly, professor of fisheries at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver. "They consume a tremendous amount of highly concentrated protein pellets and they make a terrific mess."

Fish wastes and uneaten feed smother the sea floor beneath these farms, generating bacteria that consume oxygen vital to shellfish and other bottom-dwelling sea creatures."


And further,…

Quote:
“Disease and parasites, which would normally exist in relatively low levels in fish scattered around the oceans, can run rampant in densely packed fish farms.

"Pesticides fed to the fish and toxic copper sulfate used to keep nets free of algae are building up in sea-floor sediments. Antibiotics have created resistant strains of disease that infect both wild and domesticated fish.

"Clouds of sea lice, incubated by captive fish on farms, swarm wild salmon as they swim past on their migration to the ocean.

"We are not taking strain off wild fisheries. We are adding to it," Naylor said. "This cannot be sustained forever."


And farther down ….

Quote:
“Five international companies -- three of them based in Norway -- control most of the existing farms….In Norway, parasites have so devastated wild fish that the government poisoned all aquatic life in dozens of rivers and streams in an effort to re-boot the ecological system.

"The Norwegian companies are transferring the same operations here that have been used in Europe," said Pauly, the fisheries professor. "So we can infer that every mistake that has been done in Norway and Scotland will be replicated here." Dale Blackburn, vice president of West Coast operations for Norwegian-based Stolt Sea Farm, said his staff works very closely with its counterparts in Norway. But, he said, "It's ridiculous to think we don't learn from our mistakes and transfer technology blindly."

Still, more than a dozen farms in British Columbia have been stricken by infectious hematopoietic necrosis, a virus that attacks the kidneys and spleen of fish.

Jeanine Siemens, manager of a Stolt farm, said, "It was really hard for me and the crew" to oversee the killing of 900,000 young salmon last August because of a viral outbreak.

Grieg Seafood recently got an emergency permit from the Canadian government to dump in the Pacific 900 tons of salmon killed by a toxic algae bloom. The emergency? The weight of the dead fish threatened to sink the entire farm. Farms are typically required to bury the dead in landfills to protect wild marine life and the environment.”



The article goes on and on, and shows nothing good can come out of an open pen fish farm industry, except dollars in the coffers of those who are paid to make very bad environmental and ecological decisions.

Personally, I think open pen fish farms are not the way to go, for many reasons. ( I happen to believe that land based, aquaculture, in controlled effluent pens, with recycling and monitoring can be a good thing, much like current hatchery type systems, could be not only acceptable but good, would work.) I know I can’t make decisions for anyone else. And, I support others right to their own opinions and they can base them on whatever input they want.

Seems Tom and I don’t agree and that’s OK. I still think he is a great guy, a good fisherman, and a friend. Pretty sure we can agree to disagree, and support our rights to have and present our own differing opinions.

It has been a good learning experience for me here, Thanks to those who participated and to the Admin guys for some latitude.



You've missed the point, Harvey. They are fun to catch. And you can eat them if you want. Think about those people who are having fun catching and eating them today, not any long term effects. We need to stay on topic. Fun. Eat.

Last year, I was looking at potential boat launch sites on Vancouver Island. When researching one of them (Cougar Creek), I accidentally linked to a YouTube video of a salmon farm that had died off from disease. A group of private divers went down and filmed what was happening under the pens. Gobs of bubbling slime. Somehow the farming business enlisted local law enforcement to force the divers out of the water, boats away from the area, and even people filming from the shore (probably citing public safety concerns). Anyway, these enviro-terrorist fake news observers couldn't get any more footage. I can't find that video right now.

But back on topic. Fun. Eat.

Mark
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even though I don't know anything about what this thread is supposed to be about, I do know maturity and restraint when I see (or read) it. Thanks Harvey, for the lesson in how to be an intelligent civil human being.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems the science is unclear. Science is science. It is no longer science when politics inserts itself. See global warm....er...uh...sorry...my bad..."climate change".
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the science is still science. And the results are still true, whatever the politicians do. You may have to wail a couple or more years to see the results, but they'll be there, good or bad.

Boris
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harvey,

looks like 2022 before the farms are finished

https://www.heraldnet.com/northwest/800000-more-farmed-atlantic-salmon-coming-to-puget-sound/

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