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localboy



Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 4656
City/Region: Lake Stevens via Honolulu
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: 'Au Kai (Ocean Traveler)
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
A 200 or 225 6 cylinder that weighs close to most 150 4 cylinders is going to get some attention...


I'd agree. I can imagine a 6 cyl 200 on the stern of our 25. Cool

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Pat Anderson



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 8551
City/Region: Birch Bay, WA
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Daydream
Photos: Daydream and Crabby Lou
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm...guess we will have to see how they are priced and how they hold up in service. This is a whole new line, so your prior experience with Mercs may or may not be indicative of anything. This new line is like new cars, all electronic and digital, which is good until there is a problem. Our 2008 Hyundai Tucson had 8 computers, our new 2017 Tucson has something like 74 computers. They don't so much get repaired by mechanics any more as by computer technicians! This outboard line, I suspect, will be kind of like that!

OTOH, we nearly doubled the hours on our 2005 Honda 150 during our eight months cruising on the Great Loop (1,000 hours from May 2005 to April 2017, 844.5 more hours in eight months from April to November 2017), so we are just south of 2,000 hours now It still runs like a top, but realistically we know that a re-power is something we may have to face if we keep on boating, which we intend to do as long as our bodies are up to it. Probably back down to a number like 80 - 100 hours per year. If and when we re-power, installed cost will be a huge factor for us. So we will see how the Mercs stack up against the Hondas, Suzukis and Yamahas.

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DavidM



Joined: 24 Dec 2017
Posts: 196
City/Region: Punta Gorda
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2006
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:36 am    Post subject: d Reply with quote

Pat and Patty:

You have put a lot of hours on your engine in a short period of time. Forgive me if this was previously posted but:

What engine
What is your average speed or
How many hours and how much distance did you travel.
What is your wot speed (to help me figure average hp used)

I am an anal retired engineer and would like to know how much load and stress you put on your engine in the almost 2,000 hours.

Post the data and I will figure the average hp you made and post the results.

David
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JamesTXSD



Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Posts: 7444
City/Region: from island boy to desert dweller
State or Province: AZ
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: "Wild Blue" (sold 9/14)
Photos: Wild Blue
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pat Anderson wrote:
Hmm...guess we will have to see how they are priced and how they hold up in service. T
...

If and when we re-power, installed cost will be a huge factor for us. So we will see how the Mercs stack up against the Hondas, Suzukis and Yamahas.


I recall from a previous thread, your dislike for Mercury motors, Pat. Over the years, I have owned 4 Hondas, 3 Mercs, a Nissan, and a Tohatsu outboards; all have given great service, except for one small Honda, which was a pain in the ass from day one (purchased new). Other Hondas (cars, motorcycles, generators, and a snow blower) have also been reliable. That one bad Honda outboard doesn't spoil my opinion of Hondas in general.

What hands-on, actually-owned-one, experience do you have with Mercury, Pat?
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Pat Anderson



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 8551
City/Region: Birch Bay, WA
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Daydream
Photos: Daydream and Crabby Lou
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:51 pm    Post subject: Re: d Reply with quote

Engine: Honda BF150
Average RPMs / speed: 2,000 - 2,200, 6 - 7 SMPH
Engine hours: 844.5
Distance traveled: 5,428 statute miles

We almost never ran WOT - we were slow cruisers before, and slow cruisers on the Loop! The single exception was we wanted to be able to plane so we could cross the Big Bend in the Gulf of Mexico on the plane, and we did achieve that thanks to Marc Grove and Wefings Marine in Apalachicola, FL.

This page from our blog and the short embedded video may help you understand our issue with RPMs and speed. Until we got the trim tabs repaired, put on the hydrofoil, and dropped to an 11 pitch prop, we simply could not get Daydream on the plane!

Back in our home waters, lightly loaded, our 15-3/8 x 15 (if I recall correctly) aluminum prop would give us 16-18 knots at 4,600 RPMs, so we were just at a loss to understand what was going on on the Loop. A hint, though - we were hauled out on a TraveLift with a scale in Michigan, and the scale read 7,500 lbs.!

DavidM wrote:
Pat and Patty:

You have put a lot of hours on your engine in a short period of time. Forgive me if this was previously posted but:

What engine
What is your average speed or
How many hours and how much distance did you travel.
What is your wot speed (to help me figure average hp used)

I am an anal retired engineer and would like to know how much load and stress you put on your engine in the almost 2,000 hours.

Post the data and I will figure the average hp you made and post the results.

David
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DavidM



Joined: 24 Dec 2017
Posts: 196
City/Region: Punta Gorda
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2006
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pat:

Wow!!! You must be really heavy. Not surprising if you were equipped and provisioned for the loop. Best I could tell by reading your blog is that you got up to 20 mph against a 2.5 mph current at wot with your current prop.

That isn't even close to what I would have expected. At a 5,000 lb total weight you should be able to do ten mph more. I have to push your weight up way beyond reasonableness to get the kind of numbers you are talking about.

At your very slow average speed of 6.4 kts the power required is trivial, about 10 hp. That engine should last forever at that load.

I realize that Wefings should be the pros at figuring out the right prop, but something is wrong. Your current hull/prop is extremely inefficient to require 150 hp to go 20 mph even at a loaded weight of 6,000 lbs. Maybe you are so heavily loaded that the boat acts more like a displacement hull than a planing hull.

And don't go back to your original prop or the 13" prop you mentioned in your blog. Even at low speeds the engine will appreciate running at a little more rpm which reduces stress on it.

Thanks for the data.

David
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TyBoo



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 5310
City/Region: Warrenton
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 1996
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruise Ship
Vessel Name: TyBoo
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The light weight is big plus when just looking at the stats, but you have to wonder how they got a V6 lighter than the Yamaha and Suzuki inline 4, both of which are available with up to 200 hp. Something had to be compromised somewhere.

The reason the Honda is such a workhorse is in large part because of its heft. Things inside are stored in a rugged package.

It might be wise to give this one a few model years.

The door and handle on the top is very cool, though!

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JOHN C



Joined: 08 Jan 2016
Posts: 52
City/Region: Cleveland
State or Province: OH
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Mighty Wench
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:01 am    Post subject: 130 Honda Reply with quote

We had a 1998 Honda 130. For the past 2 years over 8 months, we also put 1,000 hours on the engine at RPMs mostly under 2,000 with some exceptions.

Two years ago (2016), after spending months up in remote areas of BC, we were in a marina in Sidney BC staging for pulling out in Bellingham within a few days. When turning the key, the motor just cranked without a pop. Talk about timing!

The dealer in Sidney is fantastic. He sent a mechanic out, determined what was wrong (fuel pump), and told us it was not a job that could be done on the water.

It turns out, even though this boat was originally bought at the Annapolis boat show, it was a Canadian motor and spent all of its life in the US so none of the recalls had been done.

They warrantied it (a 20 year old motor) flying the parts out from Toronto! We had some other work done and transportation costs so all this was not close to free, but if Honda had not warrantied it, I probably would have scrapped the motor (the labor and parts for this were that expensive).

The bizzare thing I found when researching new motors then, I was told it was not uncommon for Hondas to go 10,000 hours but if they were to buy a new motor, they would go with Yamaha.

Don't understand it and hopefully I will not have to.

John

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san juanderer



Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 234
City/Region: Stanwood
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1990
C-Dory Model: 22 Angler
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That Honda was seriously overpropped, from a 15 pitch to a 11 pitch would account for about 800 rpm difference.
Overpropping an outboard is like hooking a loaded trailer behind your tow vehicle then driving over the mountain pass, without allowing the transmission to down shift. Lugging the motor all the way to the top of the pass.
Exhaust manifold temperatures SKYROCKET.
Boats with marginal horsepower, need to be propped at the manufacturers recommended WOT rpm. Does not matter that you drive the boat at 2500 rpm all day long.

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hardee



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
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City/Region: Sequim
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:38 am    Post subject: Re: 130 Honda Reply with quote

JOHN C wrote:
We had a 1998 Honda 130. For the past 2 years over 8 months, we also put 1,000 hours on the engine at RPMs mostly under 2,000 with some exceptions.

Two years ago (2016), after spending months up in remote areas of BC, we were in a marina in Sidney BC staging for pulling out in Bellingham within a few days. When turning the key, the motor just cranked without a pop. Talk about timing!

The dealer in Sidney is fantastic. He sent a mechanic out, determined what was wrong (fuel pump), and told us it was not a job that could be done on the water.

It turns out, even though this boat was originally bought at the Annapolis boat show, it was a Canadian motor and spent all of its life in the US so none of the recalls had been done.

They warrantied it (a 20 year old motor) flying the parts out from Toronto! We had some other work done and transportation costs so all this was not close to free, but if Honda had not warrantied it, I probably would have scrapped the motor (the labor and parts for this were that expensive).

The bizzare thing I found when researching new motors then, I was told it was not uncommon for Hondas to go 10,000 hours but if they were to buy a new motor, they would go with Yamaha.

Don't understand it and hopefully I will not have to.

John


John, You lucked out twice. Being a Canada motor, they would work on it, get parts and service in Canada. Had that been a USA Honda, You would have had to take it back to the States, or got there and get the parts yourself to get the work done. Canada Honda and USA Honda are about as related as KIA and Cadillac -- both have motors, wheels and steering wheel, but the warranted parts and service are on separate planets.

(That issue has been around the block on this site before.)

Harvey
SleepyC Moon


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Chester



Joined: 04 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TyBoo wrote:
The light weight is big plus when just looking at the stats, but you have to wonder how they got a V6 lighter than the Yamaha and Suzuki inline 4, both of which are available with up to 200 hp. Something had to be compromised somewhere.

The reason the Honda is such a workhorse is in large part because of its heft. Things inside are stored in a rugged package.

It might be wise to give this one a few model years.

The door and handle on the top is very cool, though!


Mercury has a new very efficient state of the art system to produce their castings.
https://www.futurefc.com/mercury-marines-new-high-pressure-die-casting-machine-is-now-the-largest-in-north-america/
Their new 150 is widely considered the class leader.
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Pat Anderson



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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Photos: Daydream and Crabby Lou
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JamesTXSD wrote:

What hands-on, actually-owned-one, experience do you have with Mercury, Pat?


I have owned two Mercs. One was an old one purchased from my cousin for a Birch Bay crabbing boat, I forget the HP, maybe a 35, but it was on a 14 foot aluminum boat, and was too big for the boat. As I recall it was sometimes a cranky starter but then ran fine. The other was a new 2 HP Merc that I had on the Alaska Series, so maybe 2007? I bought it new in Canada just over the border right after we bought the Alaska Series, and the price was amazing, I think $500. I sold it with the Alaska Series last year. It was very reliable. Somebody told me the 2 HP Merc was actually a re-branded Tohatsu, but I don't know if that is true or not. Both of these were two strokes.

My point was, it remains to be seen, since this is a radical departure from the past in this new line of Merc outboards, how a highly digital electronic outboard will hold up in service, and what people will find if/when a computer fails. A computer failed on our 2008 Hyundai, and with a few other things, it would have cost $5,000 to repair. KBB on that car was $2,500. The new Hyundai has about 10 times as many computers, and although we never buy extended warranties, we bought the extra 10 year warranty that covers the computers, since the factory warranty only covers the power train, which was defined as parts lubricated by oil.
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Robert H. Wilkinson



Joined: 26 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Might have been just some kind of coincidence but at the London(Ont.) boat show today there seemed to be a large sampling of Mercs everywhere I looked. Everything up to a 350hp Verado on a Scout - hey a Verado on a Dorado! Evinrudes and Mercs seemed to be dominating the market. Only saw a few Yamahas here and there.


Regards, Rob

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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One factor may be the shortage of the larger Yamaha outboards, which are back ordered from the 175 on up. Also certain builders have "loyalty" to exclusive brands of motors..
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texasair



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercury marine is no stranger to lightweight performance.
They used to build the all aluminum 32 valve Corvette engine for GM.
And we have been very pleased with our 90 hp fuel injected 2 stroke Optimax on our 22 C-Dory. Thousands of miles with no issues
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