Bear Spray

[Hunkydory]

Bob, yes all the heavy magnum rifle calibers best known for Africa hunts & some on grizzly bears have much more energy & velocity than a 12 ga magnum & even carry more energy than a 12 ga out to several hundred yards. The advantage of the 12 ga with magnum slugs such as the benneke is the much larger diameter slug increases the amount of animal felt shock over similar energy from a much lower diameter bullet. Of course one of the really big bore magnum rifles in my opinion would have even more stopping power than the 12 ga, But you might need a gun bearer to lug it with you & that is the big advantage of the short barreled 12 ga. It has very little weight & size with hard hitting power. The caliber most compared with the 12 ga for bear defense is the 45-70 hand loaded with maximum powder & a heavy bullet weighting almost as much as a 1 oz 12 ga slug. Their energy & velocity are close & the .45 bullet expands quickly to almost the size of a 12 ga slug. Advantage more accurate up close & at longer distance then the 12 ga. Disadvantages very few, other than slightly heavier & cost more, along with having most likely to hand load the ammo to equal the 12 ga stopping power. If I didn’t already have the shotgun it would actually be my first choice to carry, due to its better accuracy & I for years when younger, used a lever action Winchester 25/35, 30/30 & the last a model 1895 Winchester 30/06 for hunting, which I still have.

I can’t say for sure the 12 ga with the magnum slugs will instantly stop a grizzly bear charge, but I have read over the years many accounts of this happening with the bear being knocked down even several times before stopped. Guides, I’ve talked to recommended their clients shoot the bear through the shoulders, which is called breaking them down & most often when shot anywhere near center mass with large caliber magnum they will go down, then if not broken down, will get back up & either charge or run away. This leads the hunter & guide into the dangerous business of now shooting at a moving enraged bear coming at them or going after it in the bush. I feel the 12 ga with the 3 in magnum at very close range to be at least equal to the large magnum rifles at the longer ranges they are used for with dangerous big game. If knocked down, with a quick firing pump or auto shotgun time is gained to quickly fire into it to stop it from coming again. Most big bore magnum rifles are bolt action & to slow to cycle for more quick shots even if knocked down. Most 45-70 are lever action & can be fired about as fast as a pump. Depending on the situation, if possible, I would try for a brain shot, but likely if a charge occurs it would be so quick & surprising that center mass would be the best or only option if even that.

In 1982, while hunting elk alone in the Salt Mountain Range in Wyoming, I was quietly walking along a game trail in a drizzling rain. The trail was along a very steep side hill, almost cliff like. Up a head in front of a large tree was I thought a rock. When I got less then 10 feet from it, the rock turned into a sleeping black bear, that awoke very startled & commenced to go around in circles huffing. The big tree blocked it from running directly away & it was close to straight up & down between us. Fortunately for me on about the 2nd or 3rd circle it dove off down the semi cliff face. I was so surprised by the rock turning into a bear, that even though, I was carrying my rifle in my right hand, I never raised it, so if the bear had come at me instead of just woofing in circles & then running, it would have had me. So I do know how one can be surprised & remain in-mobile & not even from fear. I don’t think this would happen again to me in SE Alaska where, when on shore, I’m always very alert for bears.

In a quick attack at very close quarters there would be no doubt whether to shoot or spray if possible. In more open terrain the decision when to spray would be much easier than when to shoot with knowing the hassle that will begin if having to kill, many might wait to long with a firearm thinking chances are it’s a false charge as most will be. As much as I’ve been around bears, I’ve only had one come pretty much directly at me & that was in 2007, when the bear was crossing the water to the camped kayakers. When I shot along side it-that bear ran directly away over the inland ridge, then circled back around out of sight with coming almost again directly at me before veering slightly & splashing into the water about 10 feet from me in the Mokai. The others came slowly seemingly to test what I would do. This is when I tried out different methods to back them off or instead me backing off.

Jody, I’ve carried a short barreled 12 ga with pistol grips while backpack hiking in the remote areas south of Yellowstone Park. They are ok with light loads, but even a high base slug or buck shot will really jar the wrist & the other hand better be holding tight. I tried one with a 2 & 3/4 inch magnum slug. Never again. I thought at first it had broke my wrist

Jay

[Peter & Judy]

[colbysmith]

Some very interesting reading starting in regards to guns. I know nothing about, so a lot of french, but still good to see folks talking mechanics instead of politics! Regarding bears charging or coming slowly. One of the things I read talked about a charge vs stalking or preying. If the bear is charging, it's probably a one time thing if you can stop it or if it's a bluff. However, if it has you in mind for food, it's going to be coming at you slow and steady. In fact one of the articles discussed that in a charge, it's nostrils are flairing and it's eyes wide open, thus the spray is going to hit it pretty hard. OTOH, if it's stalking you for a meal, and coming down low with nostrils closed and eyes squinted (as it would going into a beehive to lesson the stings), the spray is not going to be as effective.

Peter, Arizona is another place. Closer to the old wild west! lol

[thataway]

Jay, Thanks for your reply and experience. From the Forrest Service study, I was surprised at little energy the 45-70's had--dependent on barrel length, and cartridge. I note that with Buffalo Bore, in 45-70 there is a 405 gr with 3595 ft. lbs. vs the 300 gr with 1849 ft. lbs in the Forrest Service paper as the max round available in 1983.

My experience is with humans who have been shot--and I have been amazed at how they keep going, especially when "high" on various substances--and how many rounds it takes to stop a man. Lots of variables with both bears and other mammals.

[Pandion]

[Ron on Meander]

[Hunkydory]

[Hunkydory]

[Peter & Judy]

[smckean (Tosca)]

[AstoriaDave]

In line with Jay's comments, one fine day on Graham in the Charlottes, I saw a couple guys put down a young black bear, adjacent to a contemporary Haida cemetery, all within a hundred yards of the village. Nobody blinked or took much notice of the two shots from their deer rifles.

This village is on the grid, but a looooong ways from Vancouver or any other large population centers.

Canadian bush rules can be pretty wild.

[colbysmith]

Peter and Tosca, your two comments above have got to be the best I've read in a long time! In fact, I hope you don't mind I share them on my Facebook wall! (I'll simply give credit to "friends on another forum".) Also gave the link. Colby

[jkidd]

[Fairbro]

I have absolutely no opinion on bear protection but I have a Shockwave. If you get one practice, practice, practice! Because they are mostly shot from the side of your hip or ribs I have a tendency to shoot high, especially at close distances. They have a surprisingly tight pattern at 15 yards. And that’s in a non-threatening situation. With buck shot you will have 9 or fewer pellets and with a slug... well. If you aim this gun it must be held solidly as far away from your face as possible, and even then you might get excited and forgetful ( or sweaty palms ) and have a miserable trip back to civilization and the dentist. Check out YouTube for videos on how to handle the shockwave.

[tsturm]