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C-Dory 16 handling concerns
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Blueback



Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Posts: 235
City/Region: Qualicum Beach, Vancouver Island
State or Province: BC
C-Dory Year: 1990
C-Dory Model: 16 Angler
Vessel Name: Blueback
Photos: Blueback
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thataway wrote:
I have not experience in the 16, and generally avoid commenting too much on this boat. However, my experience in the other boats, is that the permatrim, is more for getting the bow down--you generally trim the bow up--ou also want tabs all of the way up, when going down waves.

Handling heavy seas from abeam and aft the beam, is a lot of trimming the bow up--broaching is when the bow is down--and allowing the boat to naturally slip without tripping on a keel. Running in heavy seas down wind/waves, takes lot of skill in boat handling--both using the throttle, and wheel--a reason I run with one hand on the wheel--and in some boats have a "spinner" or "suicide knob" --and the other hand on the throttle. The off shore races have a throttle man and a helmsman--it takes one-man on the throttles to control those racing boats in these conditions...throttle is just as important as the wheel. All having enough power is important.

Would the Permatrim allow you to get the bow up more--yes it might. I don't know for sure in the 16--but I would also be shifting weight aft in those circumstances...

Thanks for weighing here and we all respect your knowledge from your years on the water. However, as I was there in those following waves I felt that I needed a keel- but of course that not on for our Dory's. Then more rudder effect was clearly needed and of course more throttle gives a rudder thrust but that gets hairy with more speed than you want. So I was thinking of the rudder effect of the Permatrim may be of some benefit. PS: getting the bow up on the 16 angler is easier than the Cruiser model and I have the Angler

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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20778
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I felt that I needed a keel- .....rudder effect was clearly needed and of course more throttle gives a rudder thrust but that gets hairy with more speed than you want. So I was thinking of the rudder effect of the Permatrim may be of some benefit.


Blueback--the point is that the Permitrim, does not give a rudder effect--its effect is bow up, bow down. My feeling is that it does not give any more control than the skeg of the outboard.
The small "wings" on the permatrim--are more to give the plate stiffness--any steering effect would be minimal.

I understand your feeling that you "wanted a keel"--but with a lot of experience in ocean racing boats--one of the safest and easily handling in heavy sea, was a boat which had a dagger board, forward, and a mizzen board aft--with a rudder at the aft end of the water line. Far less likely to broach than a full keel boat. The boat would safely slide sideways, rather than rounding up, as in a boach. The ketch I took to Europe and back was full keel--and I had plenty of experience during 4 days of hurricane force winds, with seas up to 40/45 feet and breaking...I never had a full broach, because I keep the engine running to keep water flow over the rudder and maintain steering effect.

You are correct that bursts of power is the best way to give steering effect with an outboard. You would have less steering effect if there was a keel. A short burst of speed, to correct steering, does not necessarily give an unsafe increase of speed.

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Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
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dotnmarty



Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 4196
City/Region: Sammamish
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1993
C-Dory Model: 16 Angler
Vessel Name: LIZZIE II
Photos: Lizzie
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well Jeff I can't honestly say that the Permatrim would help in the circumstances you describe. What I can say is this, I've had 16 footers both with and without Permatrims. It is my considered opinion that it is the single best option for the money (probably in the $125US if I remember correctly) you can get. Yes it brings the bow up and down and yes it helps "hold" the boat to the water in rough seas. I would go so far as to say no 16 footer should leave the factory without one. As you can see, I'm a believer. Good luck and stay safe in your beautiful Blueback.
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Blueback



Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Posts: 235
City/Region: Qualicum Beach, Vancouver Island
State or Province: BC
C-Dory Year: 1990
C-Dory Model: 16 Angler
Vessel Name: Blueback
Photos: Blueback
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dotnmarty wrote:
Well Jeff I can't honestly say that the Permatrim would help in the circumstances you describe. What I can say is this, I've had 16 footers both with and without Permatrims. It is my considered opinion that it is the single best option for the money (probably in the $125US if I remember correctly) you can get. Yes it brings the bow up and down and yes it helps "hold" the boat to the water in rough seas. I would go so far as to say no 16 footer should leave the factory without one. As you can see, I'm a believer. Good luck and stay safe in your beautiful Blueback.


Bob & Marty
Thanks so much for your considered opinions here, as this is not a lightly held conversation -- or your opinions. We were too close to the edge this time, and I wish to consider your options with the serious considerations they deserve. My math tell me on a 16 ' a Permatrim may extend (or move the longitudinal CG a bit aft) having the effect of making the boat a tad longer. This of course would be a benefit. However, I do get Bob's point of view too, in that because there is a very small vertical lip the rudder effect would be minimal.
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