Catastrophic failure of Honda BF150

[smckean (Tosca)]

I've learned a few things from my unfortunate experience I will document here.

Having talked to several boat yards and mechanics, it seems beyond question that these Honda "Accord engines turned on their side" (I think it is an Accord) have this thrust bearing problem that bit me in the ass. Everyone tells me that over the years they have seen several engines with this problem. To be sure, it only hits a small number, and there doesn't seem to be an obvious pattern as to why it happens, but it does happen. I've been told that engines with as few as 300 hours on them have crapped out due to this problem, and other times it happens to engines with 3000 hours or more. Again no pattern.

The sad part is that this problem is easily diagnosed. Any mechanic familiar with Honda should check the play in the crank shaft to see if it is out of tolerance. Why they didn't do this at EQ Marine when they replaced my chain case is beyond me. It is dirt simple to do by removing the cowling, removing the 4 bolts that hold the black plastic cover on top revealing the pulley (flywheel?) on which the belt runs to the alternator, and putting a small pry bar under that pulley to check the play. I assure you if I ever took my Honda 135/150 in for maintenance, I would have them check this.

I'm told if the play is caught early, Honda has a spring (perhaps a heftier spring) that can be added to the crank shaft support system that resolves the problem. The engine still needs to be torn down to do this, but it will cost $2000-3000 instead of the loss of the entire engine.

If the problem has advanced, you will also see score marks on the chain cover underneath that pulley where the pulley periodically hits the chain cover as the crank shaft bounces up and down beyond its spec levels.

[Salmon Fisher]

It's been awhile since this post, Sandy, so wondering how you like the new motor.

Did you go Yamaha?

[Gene Stebbs.]

Sorry to hear of your problems, whether it makes a difference in what I buy or whether I re-power before heading north after buying is something I will look into very carefully in the future, depending on many factors,
I hope you find a reasonable solution to your situation, my best wishes to you and yours. I am sure it will work out for you in the long run as these boats hold value as well as most anything that floats, giving you quite a bit of wiggle room. Best of luck my friend.

[Foggy]

Sir:

The etiology of the problem with your outboard is one of the following:

1. Something you did or did not do to it
2. A malfunction or failure of an internal part of the thing
3. The motor, in essence, is a lemon
4. The universe, regarding you and O/B motors, is not in
your corner

So sorry and good luck with it.

Aye.
Grandpa used to say, "To fix any engine, analyze/repair each part of the
combustion cycle:
SUCK (intake),
SQUEEZE (compression),
BANG (ignition),
BLOW (exhaust)."

and

"Stuff happens."

[BTDT]

OP- Thank you for posting your issue and all the input and follow up by you and others. I will have my 2007 Honda 150's checked for bearing play at the next service. They have 2350 hours on them so better safe then sorry.

[breausaw]

[smckean (Tosca)]

Hello all.......long time, no see/hear,

Sorry to have dropped out. My wife and I started to build a new house here on Guemes Island via a contractor last July. We are still building it now. We've hit the exterior siding and interior painting stage at this point. We hope to move in sometime this summer. The pace is fairly leisurely since we live on the property in a small cabin, and we've finally sold our Seattle house, so having an absolute deadline is not a priority.

Anyway, and needless to say, life got, and continues to be, very hectic as anyone who has built a new house from the ground up knows (utilities, road, etc included). One of the casualties has been my time on C-Brats . Today is the 1st time I've logged in to the forum since last summer. The CBGT in Friday Harbor on 5/19 has prompted me to come back to the surface -- yes, we will be attending the CBGT with the CD25 Tosca (nee Anna Leigh) with its newly installed Yamaha 200 together with digital controls and new gauges retrofited into the helm station.

Hopefully, I will find time before Friday Harbor to post a longer message with more details, but for now allow me to give you a thumbnail sketch (especially to those of you who posted last October wondering about the outcome). For many reasons (none the fault of anyone in particular), it took all summer to complete the changes to Tosca. I did not get the boat back until mid-September. So I missed the entire 2015 cruising season. I have taken the boat out several times now to test things out. Bottom line? This is practically an entirely new boat. Tosca performed wonderfully when I got her (and her then Honda 150 with the SS S3x14.5x15R prop), but now she is even better....surprisingly better. Except for the huge expense, I am a very happy camper (or should I say sailor?). I am so pleased I have to pinch myself every time I take her out.

As I said, more later, but suffice it to say the 200 horses plus the SS S4x14.65x15R prop I am currently using is a dream (see the performance numbers below). I am still looking for a SS S4x13x15R or S4x13.5x15R which I think will make her sing even better, but I can't find this size in anyone's standard line of props. The current prop works great, but believe it or not I go too fast! WOT with this prop is about 5200 to 5300 RPM, and I would be happier if WOT was 300-400 RPM higher. She pops out the hole just fine, and all other power maneuvers are more than adequate, but I just feel that I'd be even happier to trade some of that speed for even more torque and power (I don't really need to go 35 MPH ).

Here are some preliminary performance numbers I logged just after I got the boat back at the end of last summer. This was on pretty flat water with 1 person; medium loaded; full tank gas; full tank water using the SS S4x14.65x15R


RPM MPH GPH MPG Comments
- 1200 6.0 1.0 6.0 hull speed, very smooth
- 2000 10 2.2 4.5 just before start of climb to plane
- 2800 14 4.1 3.4 still on plane, but just about to drop off plane after having gone to 3200 to get it on plane
- 3000 16 5.1 3.1 tested after having gone to 3200 to get on plane
- 3200 17 5.4 3.1 just on plane
- 3500 20 6.0 3.3 full plane after trimming
- 4000 25 8.1 3.1
- 4500 30 10.5 2.6
- 5000 33 ? ?
- 5200 36 ? ? WOT - relatively smooth water
- 5300 34 ? ? WOT - very slight chop

- Sweet spots:
1300 = hull speed, sweetest of all, MPH = 6.5
3200 = on plane, slowest, MPH = 17
3600 = on plane, slower, best fuel economy?, MPH = 21, GPH = 6.4, MPG = 3.3
4100 = on plane, faster, MPH = 26

[thataway]

Sounds like a great running boat now. Agree with the no need for speed...more than 30 mph... That motor lower unit is geared and configured for a 16" prop. There will not be any of the smaller props. Perhaps dropping down to a 13" pitch, and with a 15 to 16" diameter. You could cut down a larger prop--but then you are loosing some of the blade area out near the tip, which gives a lot of that performance.

Good looking numbers!

[smckean (Tosca)]

[Salmon Fisher]

Great to hear you are happy with the new motor.
Those performance numbers are impressive, sure beats the Honda 150.
Looking forward to seeing you at FH, you might have some people who want to take a ride and fill up your gas fund!

[Salmon Fisher]

Great to hear you are happy with the new motor.
Those performance numbers are impressive, sure beats the Honda 150.
Looking forward to seeing you at FH, you might have some people who want to take a ride and fill up your gas fund!

[thataway]

You are close to optimal performance at 5300 RPM--but ideally would want 5500 RPM, at WOT. The engine can swing a 16" prop--for the low pitch end of the performance range. You will note that the 11", 12",13" and 14"pitch props are mostly 15 1/2 to 16" diameter. These are going to be "power props" for heavier boats...the C Dory 25. The prop you have now is a 4 blade SS, 14.65" diameter and 15" pitch prop. You want a 13 to 13.5" diameter prop--thinking correctly, that the smaller diameter prop will will turn faster. But the prop manufacturers only make those smaller diameter props in much higher pitch which are for bass boats, which are more "performance" props (speed) for light weight boats.

Also there is the 4 blade vs 3 blade prop. Generally the 4 blade gives more stern lift and is less likely to capitate. But it will run a bit slower, with more blade surface area--and generally is pitched 1" lower than a comparable 3 blade prop.

My suggestion is to try 15" diameter x 15" pitch 3 blade prop, in aluminum. I'll bet that you will pickup the top RPM, about the same speed (which you don't need) and probably a better "hole" shot. The advantage of the 4 blade is especially nice in the deep V boats, where they don't come on a plane easily and at higher speeds. You don't really need that because the C Dory 25 planes at a low speed. You always want an extra prop--and if the aluminum 3 x 15 x 15 is the right prop, then you can get your good prop in SS...or keep the SS as your back up.

I doubt that the engine is lugging any with that 4 blade SS prop on, even though you are not turning quite the optimal WOT RPM....

[Foggy]

Tosca,

My worthless previous comments of 10 Oct 2015 aside, I am happy to learn your
new setup with a 200 Yamaha is working out well for you. The lesson I get out
of this is it must be true; that sometimes a problem can be solved by throwing a
lot of money at it.

But I digress, so back to the original 'bad' Honda issue* in which I am invested.
My setup is 2 x Honda BF90s. When delivered, early 2014, the dealer and his
mechanic emphasized that the biggest problem they see** with these engines,
transplants from the Honda Civic, comes from not running enough at full throttle;
"babying" them when new just after breakin period. Accordingly, the problem
comes from the piston rings (I could have exact part wrong here) not fully seating
in a newer engine when babied vs intentionally running at WOT during this early
running period causing further problems down the line. This may be counter
intuitive for some, maybe many. And, it is not mentioned in the Honda Owners
Manual like another potential problem of not allowing the engine(s) to heat up
adequately (not running over 3000 rpm) with every run.

So, for some, FYI. And happy running with your new Yammy 200.

Aye.

* your Honda 150
** and have been told by the local Honda rep

[smckean (Tosca)]

thataway,

[shontm]