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smckean (Tosca)
Joined: 18 Jan 2014 Posts: 975 City/Region: Guemes Island (Anacortes)
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Tosca
Photos: Tosca
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Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:25 pm Post subject: Catastrophic failure of Honda BF150 |
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I guess I'm the unlucky one. Within 2 days of having my 2005 CD25 Cruiser christened as "Tosca" at the May Friday Harbor gathering; and after owning the boat for a little more than a year; and after putting a mere 100 hours on the engine that already had a 1000 hours on it; and after spending $2000 on a major tune up and chain case replacement just 40 engine hours ago; my Honda 150 engine destroyed itself!
My main interest at this point is whether or not anyone else, who has a Honda, has had this experienced. According to the Honda authorized mechanic, the thrust bearings (I think that's what he called them) that the vertical crank shaft sits on failed. Apparently, this is a known problem with Honda 150s (and perhaps other Hondas). The 150 is essentially a Camray engine turned vertically; given this vertical orientation, these thrust bearings were added to support the crank shaft. My choices are to re-power the boat, or save the lower end by replacing the powerhead. Both are very expensive options.
Briefly, here's what happened. I was heading home to Guemes from Sucia, cruising along at 4400 RPM (what I consider to be the "sweet spot" when I want to go relatively fast), on perfectly calm water, in clear bright sunshine, with no debris in the water, when the engine suddenly lost power and a loud clunk noise came from the engine. The engine ran after that, but with a mild banging noise as long as I kept the RPMs below 2000 (above 2000 RPM the noise got quite loud). Luckily, I got to my destination in that condition. A couple of weeks later, I motored over to Cap Sante Marine to get a diagnosis -- a trip of only 4 or 5 miles. On the way, another loud clunk was heard, and after that the engine sounded as if it were a bag of tin cans being shaken. I barely made it into the harbor.
The mechanic told me that a few of these Hondas do this. Indeed, when I told him my story while still in his office, this crank shaft thrust bearing issue was his first guess among 2 or 3 other possibilities. He said it would be pretty easy to tell. Once on the boat, he looked carefully for any telltale oil leaks or other evidence under the cowling. He then listened to the engine at various locations with a modified stethoscope. Then came the ultimate test of his guess; he put a small pry bar under the pulley that is attached to the crank shaft just under the easily removed cover at the top of the engine. The pully moved slightly under pressure. He looked at me and said: "Not good!" He applied more pressure, and the shaft moved 1/2". "That's it.", he said, "The powerhead will have to be replaced." He said that a properly experienced person with the right tools could re-build the engine for $2000-3000 in parts; but for the average consumer (definitely me ), a replacement powerhead from new parts from the factory would be my cheapest option (about $10,000). I'm looking at that, or a brand new engine (which would be at least double that).
The mechanic told me that he had seen several Hondas fail in this way; the vast majority don't, but some do. I asked if there was a pattern (poor maintenance, hard running, etc), he said no -- it seems to be the luck of the draw. I asked if the engine might have been saved had I not run it home. He said no that the damage had no doubt happened well before that. (And indeed when I got home, with his suggestion, I looked at the old chain case that I saved from the major maintenance done just 40 engine hours previous; it showed the telltale scrape marks from that pully moving up and down once the thrust bearing began to fail.)
Anyone else had anything similar to this happen?? |
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Sea Wolf
Joined: 01 Nov 2003 Posts: 8650 City/Region: Redding
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 1987
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sea Wolf
Photos: Sea Wolf
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Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:50 pm Post subject: Re: Catastrophic failure of Honda BF150 |
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smckean (Tosca) wrote: | I guess I'm the unlucky one.
<Some deletions>
Anyone else had anything similar to this happen?? |
Sorry to hear of your plight! A definite catastrophe!
I've not heard of a similar problem here on the C-Brats, IIRC.
If it were me, and within my budget, I'd choose to replace the Honda with a new Suzuki 150 or the 175, if you need the extra 25 hp and want to pay for it and the variable valve timing).
Dr. Bob will have an opinion on this choice, I'm sure. He prefers the Suzi's in this power range, IIRC.
Joe. _________________ Sea Wolf, C-Brat #31
Lake Shasta, California
"Most of my money I spent on boats and women. The rest I squandered'. " -Annonymous |
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Will-C
Joined: 21 Aug 2007 Posts: 2476 City/Region: Temple
State or Province: PA
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 23 Venture
Vessel Name: Will-C
Photos: Will-C
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Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:57 pm Post subject: Catastrophic failure of Honda BF150 |
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I would not consider a Honda Marine Outboard. I love Honda cars, generators, motorcycles and their small air cooled industrial engines. I've owned a number of each. In Florida where the boating season is traditionally seen as the longest. Yamaha's seem to be the engine of choice. There have been a number of issues with relatively low hours Hondas, mostly related corrosion. Given what you mechanic says, I think you would be crazy to buy another Honda marine engine. Ask Marc from Wefing's. He will say the Honda's are heavier and slower and have corrosion issues. Which even worse in Florida compared to the northwest. A Yamaha 150 has a pretty good track record, that is what I would consider.
D.D. _________________ Chevrolet The Heart Beat Of America |
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brevity
Joined: 30 Mar 2014 Posts: 32
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2004
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: BREVITY
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Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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OUCH. Sorry to hear about this issue and I hope you find a good resolution.
Is $20,000 really the all-up cost for a new engine? |
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Aurelia
Joined: 21 Aug 2009 Posts: 2331 City/Region: Gig Harbor
State or Province: WA
Photos: Aurelia
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Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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That is terrible to hear but there are lots of engine options out there for you. I think many of us wonder when our unlucky time will come or if our power will just slowly age out and not force the decision. Glad you were able to still run it enough to get back to port.
From my experience with the 25 I would go up to the 175-200hp range if you replace the unit. That hull can use the extra push especially when loaded up for cruising.
Greg _________________ Greg, Cindie & Aven
Gig Harbor
Aurelia - 25 Cruiser sold 2012
Ari - 19 Cruiser sold 2023
currently exploring with "Lia", 17 ft Bullfrog Supersport Pilothouse |
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 20818 City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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One of the reasons I read" The Hull Truth" forum is to keep up to date on hull failures and outboard motor failures. The Honda 150 Thrust bearing issue is well know. But there are Hondas 150's which have gotten 8,000 hours and still running. (Most of these very high hour motors are in Law enforcement, Coast Guard, or commercial fisherman where there is a high percent to time at low speeds, and very frequent service.
The Yamaha 150's have had some exhaust corrosion issues, which have destroyed a few engines. There may be a law suit about this issue.
ETEC's have some problems--seem more random, but failure on low hour motors occur.
Mercury--some swear by them, some swear at them…they have their dedicated owners. I have only owned one during my life. It ran fine.
Suzuki, especially in the higher HP motors has had rare issues. One of the advantages to me is the higher ratio in the gear case, and larger prop diameter, which allows more aggressive props. I have had 2 Suziki 150's and currently own a 140. No problems, with any of them. But I have owned a lot of motors thru the years, and rarely had an issue.
Suzuki's biggest issue is a small number of dealers, and perhaps slightly more difficult to get parts due to fewer dealers. However, I have 2 Suzuki dealers within 25 miles of my home in Pensacola.
It sounds as if the problem with the thrust washer, in hind site, was evident when you replaced the chain case. When I first read that, it sent off alarm bells about the thrust bearing. It would have still meant an engine tear down, but we would never know what the difference in cost might have been.
The bottom line is that I think you had the bad luck of the draw. Sure there must be some tolerance difference, or minor defect in the thrust bearing which fails. But I don't know of anyone who has determined what that is.
I would go with a Suzuki 150 or 175 (same engines--just higher HP art higher RPM). But the Suzuki will require re-rigging, and thus cost more. If the new power head was 50% of the cost of a new motor, then I would go with the new power head. However, it it is 75% then I would go with the new motor. There may be some salvage value in the lower unit. I recollect somewhere reading that some one wanted a lower unit for a Honda 150--and it may have been due to corrosion issues (which certainly do exist). _________________ Bob Austin
Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
KA6PKB
Home port: Pensacola FL |
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gulfcoast john
Joined: 14 Dec 2012 Posts: 989 City/Region: PENSACOLA
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2010
C-Dory Model: 255 Tomcat
Vessel Name: Cat O' Mine
Photos: CAT O' MINE
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Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 8:27 pm Post subject: honda BF150 |
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Tosca,
Sorry about your Honda 150, which is by most all accounts is a well engineered, well built engine.
I can't help but extrapolate to the the human machine, which is engineered and built even better, with amazing self-healing qualities to boot. But folks can still have a stroke at age 4, a heart attack at age 12, or not be able to move after age 2, or die at age 1 for no fathomable reason.
My advice is say, oh well, Bad Luck here, but at least the Bad Luck is affecting one of my machines and NOT ME!
Because if REALLY Bad Luck strikes you (or me), no one may able to fix it, and $20,000 could be just a 0.01% down payment on the cost, excluding funeral arrangements.
I must be in a sorry mood today, SORRY!
Stay Positive, but not so much so that you cause galvanic corrosion on your boat.
Cheers!
John _________________ John and Eileen Highsmith
2010 Tom Cat 255, Cat O' Mine
Yamaha F150, LXF150 |
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journey on
Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 3597 City/Region: Valley Centre
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: journey on
Photos: Journey On
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Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:25 am Post subject: |
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I don't know how this would work, but looking at other forums on Honda thrust bearing failures Honda seems to have picked up the tab, or at least some of it, for failed thrust bearings. You can call Honda service and discuss the problem and see what they'd do.
I know it's no satisfaction, but the problem seems more common on the 225. It seems that allowing oil pressure to build up before gassing it is the best way to go.
Boris |
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Pat Anderson
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 8553 City/Region: Birch Bay, WA
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Daydream
Photos: Daydream and Crabby Lou
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Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:35 am Post subject: |
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Good grief, Sandy, this is terrible. Since your boat and mine have the same engine, serial numbers probably within a few digits of each other, I wonder might be in store for us... _________________
DAYDREAM - CD25 Cruiser
CRABBY LOU - CD16 Angler (sold 2020)
Pat & Patty Anderson, C-Brat #62!
http://daydreamsloop.blogspot.com
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Salmon Fisher
Joined: 07 Aug 2009 Posts: 810 City/Region: Arlington
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2004
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Kim Christine
Photos: Kim Christine
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Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:52 am Post subject: |
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That is awful news! Check out new motors on www.boats.net and you'll see prices quite a bit less than quoted.
If it were me, I would go Yamaha. Great motors and wide dealer service network all over the place. Now, I have to worry about our Honda 150. At least I have a kicker to get home on.
Good Luck on repower and let us all know how it goes. _________________ Patrick and Kim Walker
2004 25 Cruiser-Present
2000 22 Cruiser 2009-2014 (Sold)
2006 25 Cruiser 2014-2019 (Sold)
1985 22 Classic -2019 (Sold)
1991 19 Arima Sea Ranger-2019-2021 (Sold)
2015 27 Ranger Tug-2019-2023 (Sold)
1987 22 Cruiser -2021-2023 (Sold)
Honey, this REALLY will be my last boat, honest! |
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jennykatz
Joined: 15 Dec 2003 Posts: 1678 City/Region: naples
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2006
C-Dory Model: 23 Venture
Vessel Name: Little Treasurer
Photos: Jennykatz
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Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:32 am Post subject: engines |
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tHE $10,000 quote for a rebuild is crazy money . Down here in SW florida you can buy a new 150hp for $10-12k brand new (suzuki, mercury , yamaha is a little more ) It seems you guys in the PNW get raped on trailers and engines price wise . Good Luck in your search . Call around and price out new motors Honda's are the most expensive but seem to be plentiful up in PNW compared to SW florida . Jim _________________ retired 8/08 from UAL, still working pt tm
Duck c-22 cruiser sold 6/23/08
06 Venture Cruiser with merc115CT
00 cd16 cruiser honda 40 sold 3/12 |
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RobLL
Joined: 05 Aug 2014 Posts: 421 City/Region: Bremerton
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
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Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:13 am Post subject: |
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At the Seattle Boat Show I talked with one of the Everett engine dealers. He was willing to discuss prices, and replacement of my 90 horse was a lot less than I had been hearing from sights online.
ps - I was curious, and likely not ever to be in need of that replacement. |
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Will-C
Joined: 21 Aug 2007 Posts: 2476 City/Region: Temple
State or Province: PA
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 23 Venture
Vessel Name: Will-C
Photos: Will-C
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Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:10 am Post subject: Catastrophic failure of Honda BF150 |
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I Googled Suzuki outboard engine corrosion problems. Lots of activity there. Below was a quote from a posting on the Hull Truth.
A friend who is in the boating business in South Africa said that both Suzuki and Honda have a bad reputation there for corrosion. The only engine he likes is Yamaha. I really have enjoyed the performance of the Suzuki motors until this, but this shocks and angers me. The motors cost $5,000 a piece, they are in great shape internally (I have kept excellent care of them), but now they are probably going to be worthless in a couple more years.
D.D. |
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smckean (Tosca)
Joined: 18 Jan 2014 Posts: 975 City/Region: Guemes Island (Anacortes)
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Tosca
Photos: Tosca
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Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks one and all for your concern and suggestions. I thought it would conserve everyone's time if I reply to all current posts with a single reply. Here goes:
brevity wrote: | Is $20,000 really the all-up cost for a new engine? |
Well, yes and no. I've only got firm all inclusive prices from the one boat yard where the boat is now on stilts on land. The prices include everything: cost of the engine, labor, supporting equipment (controls etc), and tax. The new engines all-in costs seems to be even higher actually....more like $25,000. I have requests in from other boat yards to see what the variability is.
Aurelia wrote: | From my experience with the 25 I would go up to the 175-200hp range if you replace the unit. |
Yes. Since I've had the boat, I've always felt that I wished for more power (especially when going up on plane). I tend to cruise for multiple days with lots of creature comforts and gizmos...so I'm heavy. As I understand it, back in 2005 when this boat was purchased new, engines above 150HP were considered to be too heavy to put on this already stern-heavy boat (at least with Hondas). That is no longer true today. Indeed, I can put on a new Yamaha 200 for a mere 4 pounds of additional weight! If I go new, I'm going with 200HP.
thataway wrote: | It sounds as if the problem with the thrust washer, in hind site, was evident when you replaced the chain case. When I first read that, it sent off alarm bells about the thrust bearing. It would have still meant an engine tear down, but we would never know what the difference in cost might have been. |
You may have hit the nail on the head. The old chain case (which I kept) has the telltale scrape marks on it. It's possible all this happened in the last 100 engine hours while I've owned the boat, but more likely I think, the problem had already started before that. Had I been smart enough to have had the engine surveyed before I bought the boat, the problem might have been discovered then (it is very simple to test for, and given that trust bearing failure is a known problem with these engines, there is little doubt the mechanic doing the survey would have found the problem). Furthermore, as you point out, I am definitely bothered that EQ Marine did not even look at the removed chain case. The scoring is very clear on the old chain case, and the mechanic should have told me about it before I spent the now totally wasted $2000 on the major tune up and chain case replacement.
As far as your manufacturer recommendations go....at the moment I am leaning toward a Yamaha 200. Somehow given all I've seen and read, the Yamaha appeals to me. I plan in future years to spend time in Canada (and a dream to one day circumnavigate the Queen Charlotte Islands). As I understand it, Yamahas have the best service network in Canada.
gulfcoast john wrote: | Stay Positive, but not so much so that you cause galvanic corrosion on your boat. |
Thanks, John, for your interesting comments. They put a smile on my face.
Pat Anderson wrote: | Good grief, Sandy, this is terrible. Since your boat and mine have the same engine, serial numbers probably within a few digits of each other, I wonder might be in store for us... |
Indeed! I thought of you when this happened! OTOH, everyone seems to be saying that having this happen is a crap shoot. Some engines do it, some don't. Maybe you're the lucky one to balance me the unlucky one .
Salmon Fisher wrote: | That is awful news! Check out new motors on www.boats.net and you'll see prices quite a bit less than quoted. |
Thanks for the link. I've checked it out and best I can tell, these prices are $2000-3000 cheaper in terms of base price of the engine. The prices I'm looking at are all-in prices (including even tax). I have little doubt there may be some negotiating room in the prices I've been given, but I don't think much. It may be that once you pay shipping, other hardware such as the digital controls or whatever, the price may not be so far apart.
jennykatz wrote: | tHE $10,000 quote for a rebuild is crazy money |
Note that the replacement of the powerhead price is not a rebuilt engine, but for the installation of a brand new factory powerhead. The $10,000 includes labor, tax, you name it. Perhaps that explains the difference. I am checking around on pricing, but so far, I don't see a lot of variability in prices. |
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williwaw
Joined: 05 Jan 2014 Posts: 148 City/Region: Portland
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 23 Venture
Vessel Name: Williwaw
Photos: Williwaw
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Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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You might get a quote from Sportcraft down here in Portland. They sell Honda and Suzuki... and no sales tax |
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