To survey or not to survey

[tka]

I've not yet purchased a boat, but will likely be buying in the next 18 months. We have been entertaining the idea either of a (used, for sure) Ranger Tug, or C-Dory. That covers quite a wide cost range. I'm just wondering, given that some used C-Dorys that I see available are $40k and less, at that cost does it make sense to hire a survey as part of the purchase agreement?

Thanks, everyone.

[Aurelia]

Most folks here will likely say yes but I think it depends on your confidence and knowledge of boats and motors and systems plus the seller situation as well. We bought our two C-dorys without surveys and have no regrets. But.... I do have a higher than average comfort level buying vehicles of various types and also a better than average gift of reading and communicating with sellers.

Are you nervous buying a used car? Calming the nerves can be worth the bucks.

The complexity of systems on the Ranger exceeds that of the C-dories and I would be leaning toward the survey at that level myself.

Greg

[Fairbro]

When I bought mine it was a few months old and had 15 hours on it. I had it surveyed! Who knows where a good intentioned but overzealous do it yourself, boater might have drilled holes or made useless or even dangerous changes. Pictures are helpful but can't trully represent condition. A spongy cockpit deck will look just fine in a picture. I called an insurance company in the sellers area and asked who they used to look at damaged boats. They hooked me up with an appraiser who did a thorough report for $60.00. (12 years ago) if you can't see it for yourself, have it surveyed!

[ssobol]

Certainly with the CD22 what you see it what you get. There is nothing really hidden or out of sight. The boat is pretty simple, which is a big reason most people on this site like them. Reading the posts on this forum will give a list of things to check, but it won't be that long. If you buy one from someone in this forum you are unlikely to have any real problems with it. If you have experience with similar sized boats you probably won't have any problems checking it out yourself.

You may want to have a mechanic check over the engine(s) though. These are the most complicated piece of the whole boat. Certainly a test drive is called for.

Check out the trailer thoroughly. I don't know if this is part of a survey. I had more trouble with the trailer that came with my boat than anything else.

The CD25 is simpler than most boats in this size range. However, depending on how extensively it is equipped, a survey might be in order. Mostly to check out the added systems, not so much the boat itself IMO.

Any Ranger is much more complicated than a CD 22 or 25. Inboard diesel, prop shaft, steering gear, generator, head, AC, thrusters, etc. Also things are much more out of the way and out of sight. This makes it easier for things to go unnoticed until something serious is wrong. Also a Ranger is several times more expensive to buy and repair than a CD22 and a survey may be a worthwhile investment.

[potter water]

Salt water time versus fresh water time is something to consider in the survey or not question. Also, stored on land or on the water, and if on land, in hard covered storage or open to the weather. Used in dry parts of the U.S. or rainy and wet. If a boat is low hours and stored out of the water, a long history of fresh water useage, and in hard cover storage, there is much less need to worry about a survey. I've owned a dozen salt water and fresh water boats, and the salt water boats all had hidden problems that I didn't find until after I'd bought them. Two of those boats had been surveyed, but the surveys missed some minor, but still, costly points that were associated with the extensive salt water use. Not so with the fresh water boats.

Also, ask the seller to provide a warranty to cover the first few hours on the water. Agree with the seller to put some money into escrow until you've put it on the water yourself. A test drive is not going to tell you much about the real issues with a boat. Your need to have a day on the water, and when it is a cruiser, you need a night on the water. If problems are found that need fixing, then you tap the escrow money. Then the balance of the escrow gets released to the seller.

Of course, you are buying a used boat and there is always some risk, and a smart seller won't give you a long and open ended warranty or money back warranty and the buyer shouldn't expect that. There are also potential problems that can show up in a used boat that the seller wasn't aware of. That is the used versus new conundrum.

I've watched a lot of boats bought and sold on this forum in the last five years, and without exception, as far as I can tell, the transactions have been good events and I think, the vast majority didn't entail surveys. In one or two cases where a problem occurred, amicable solutions were worked out.

Bottom line is that the C-dory is a simple boat. You can pretty much see with your own eyes any problems other than core water intrusion. Water intrusion is a result of weather and water exposure over a long period of time and improper on or off water storage. A simple, short term guarantee from the seller on the engines and electronic systems removes that worry.

I personally wouldn't worry about buying a C-dory from anyone who's active on the forum with or without a survey.

I would be concerned and carefully consider any major, owner executed, modifications to the boat. Over powered motor for example or significant fiberglass work.

I sold my 32 foot Gulf Motor sailor years ago to a nervous buyer without a survey and gave him a healthy guarantee for 30 days. I was able to give him the guarantee because I knew the boat, and knew what true condition it was in. The only problem I had to follow up on was that the diesel anti-bio treatment I was using wasn't working. He lost engine due to plugged fuel filter a mile from the entrance to Marina Del Rey. He had to get a tow. I paid for the tow and for servicing the diesel fuel.

If I was buying a C-dory I'd ask for a very short term warranty from the seller for engine and electronics. If the seller said no, then that would be a red flag but not necessarily a deal killer. Once, I had an asking price on another boat that the buyer agreed to. He didn't ask, but I gave him back 1000 bucks and said that was my warranty on the boat. I simply can't stand the idea of selling something and having the buyer unhappy.

C-Brats are an odd lot. None of us can stand the idea of an unhappy buyer.

[tka]

Thank you all. The responses confirmed the direction I'm leaning, and highlighted areas deserving special attention.

Getting excited now.

[thataway]

Unless you have a lot of experience with cored boats, and own moisture meter and know how to use it, I would have any C Dory surveyed. They are cored with plywood, balsa or foam.

Having said that, there are many surveyors who do not know how to survey a cored hull. Also remember that in most states there is no requirement for a surveyor to be licensed or bonded. Any insurance they have, is to protect them from a law suit--not to protect you. There are some of the societies which are better than others. So ask some very knowledgable boaters who they recommend for surveys. I would not necessarily depend on an insurance company. What is needed for an insurance claim is far different than a pre purchase hull and systems inspection.

Many insurance companies require an inspection on a used boat. I also agree that in many cases a new, or lightly used boat may well benefit from a survey.

There are a very few surveyors who are up to date on survey techniques. $60 for any survey is a bargain--at lest cost wise. The average is currently $18 a foot for the country as a whole. Even at that surveyors are not getting rich.

I do agree that a Ranger tug is far more complex--and one of the issues there is the running gear--the alignment of the shaft coupling/engine. There is the issue of engine mounts, as well as rudder, and two thrusters which are difficult to access. Of the Rangers I prefer the 27. I had considered buying one several times--and always felt far better off with the simplicity and reliability of the outboard. I have owned a number of inboard diesel boats for over 50 years. Be sure and have a good mechanic (certified for the specific engine in the boat) survey the diesel engine--and that is separate from the hull and condition/value survey.

Good luck on your purchase.

[Kushtaka]

There isn't much to hide. If you are confident checking motor compression, and assessing the engine (don't forget to check the lower unit!), then go educate yourself on the various troubles that can arise in the balsa core, and learn how to identify them.

BUT, even if the boat has some rot in the core around screws through the deck and transom, this is totally fixable, and generally limited to the area just around the offending screw, AND ever conscientious C-Dory owner should diligently remove all screws into the hull and transom and overdrill, fill with thickened epoxy and redrill.

I know price points are tough in the boat building game, but they really should be doing this at the factory.

That said, I got a survey when I bought my 22, but I had to for the loan.

If you aren't sure you can always inspect then come back and check in here for advice.

[matt_unique]

You can educate yourself but I think it's cheap insurance. They will have the moisture sensors and may think of things you do not during the inspection.

[thataway]

Kushtaka, the reality is that almost all boats--(although a few more are foam cored now than 10 year ago) have some wood in the composition. In each case, the manufacturer should encase each screw or bolt hole with epoxy. That is the way I built several boats. But, is is more than just a few dollars, unfortunately to do this retrospectively. In fact you often have very low paid workers, do assembly. (all of this is most unfortunate--and why the majority of small boats are shot after 20 to 30 years. The better manufactures, put in solid glass in areas where there was penetration of the cored composite. We will probably never see this happen, although we will see more core of foams, or composite other than wood. Even foam or other composite, can have issues, with water intrusion--especially in the cold where there can be freezing of moisture and delimitation or core.

There is technology which would allow surveyors to determine if this occurs, but they are too cheap to buy the instrumentation, and learn how to use it, and the average boat owner is too cheap to pay the extra dollars. It is amazing how many boats are sold because of just a hundred dollars difference in price…We as consumers don't demand this, so it is not done.