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easternshore22
Joined: 12 Jun 2010 Posts: 40 City/Region: Eastern Shore
State or Province: MD
C-Dory Year: 1996
C-Dory Model: 22 Angler
Vessel Name: Hunky Dory
Photos: Hunky Dory
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Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:59 pm Post subject: Suzuki DF90A Stalling |
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I am having problems with my outboard that is driving me crazy.
Symptoms: Engine stalls idling, going at cruising speed or at WOT, Can be 2 minutes from starting or 15 minutes. Engine stops, beeps twice (indicating stalling) and no error codes in diagnostic screen. I squeeze the primer bulb a couple of times and starts again. Then it happens again and repeat the cycle.
The fuel system has (in sequential order):
- Two fuel tanks
- Selection valve
- 10 micron filter
- Primer bulb
- Low pressure filter
- Low pressure pump
- Fuel vapor separator that includes high pressure pump and pressure regulator
- High pressure filter
- Injectors
- I use regular gas with stabil + startron
I replaced everything between the tanks and low pressure pump with the exception of the selection valve. The problem still exists and seems that it is more frequent.
What I have observed:
- When it stalls, the bulb is not flat, just soft
- When I prime again, I hear air coming out the vapor separator until the bulb gets hard
- If I notice that the engine will stall, I reduce RPM and recovers
- I checked for air leaks when priming, and can not find any since I can get the bulb hard and stays like that
- No kinks even when the engine tilting up or down, left or right.
- I hear the high pressure pump working when I turn the switch to on (based on the shop manual, it turns on at 100% for 3 seconds to pressurize the system).
My next step is to replace the high pressure filter, but not sure this is the problem. The problem happens at high and low RPM, it seems that randomly somewhere the fuel line gets obstructed. Maybe the pickup at the tank get's obstructed?
Any ideas?
Thanks,
Franco _________________ ____________________________
1996 C-Dory Angler 22'
Choptank River
Eastern Shore, MD |
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Bill K
Joined: 28 Sep 2012 Posts: 314 City/Region: Toledo
State or Province: OH
C-Dory Year: 1989
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: NIC'L PIC'L
Photos: NIC'L PIC'L
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Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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Check your vent hose from one end to the other.
Bill Kelleher _________________ KA8BFT |
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BrentB
Joined: 15 Jul 2006 Posts: 4419 City/Region: Greenwood
State or Province: IN
Photos: BrentB
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Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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off hand
Has the bulb been replaced and pointing to sky?
Is it a generic bulb or high quality(Suzuki, etc) bulb? _________________ Brent Barrett |
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Roscoe
Joined: 02 Apr 2007 Posts: 91 City/Region: Portland
State or Province: ME
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C for Two
Photos: C for Two
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Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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We had the same problem with both our 40 hp Suzukis. Nobody could fix them, not reasonably anyway, and we ended up replacing them with Yamahas. |
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rogerar
Joined: 10 May 2008 Posts: 146 City/Region: SW FL
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 1999
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Duck
Photos: Duck
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rogerar
Joined: 10 May 2008 Posts: 146 City/Region: SW FL
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 1999
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Duck
Photos: Duck
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Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:00 am Post subject: |
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Here's a great troubleshooting sequence:
Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 11415
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2006
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Thisaway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:11 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Starting at the bottom of the tank here is what could be an issue: intake screen over the fuel pickup clogged. The pickup tube could have an air leak (I have had a pin hole in one, which pulled air, rather than fuel). The anti siphon valve at the top of the tank--may or may not have an Elbow attached. Anywhere along the line there could be a pinch, or even in an old line, broken down inner wall of an old hose which has collapsed and would prevent fuel from flowing. At the filter--could be air coming in any of the fittings, hose clamp leaking at any of these places from anti siphon valve to the squeeze bulb. The filter gasket or water drain (if it has one) is not seated properly. I have also seen Teflon tape which covered an intake or discharge fitting out of a filter, when it was not properly applied to the threads. The bulb could be bad--and I always carry a spare bulb. If there is an obstruction, the bulb usually remains collapsed. One other place, but unlikely in this scenario is a clogged fuel vent.
I agree that it seems like it is sucking air. I usually keep an outboard tank around, so I can put that in the boat, and do diagnostics--see if the leak is before the tank buy hooking the house out of the anti siphon valve to the outboard tank. If it works fine, then the air leak (or obstruction) is in the anti siphon valve or in the tank pickup. Work your way up the system and you will find you leak. Another way to find a leak is to paint all of the fittings with a soapy water solution, put slight pressure on the fuel line from the tank--and see if bubbles form at the fittings junction or around the hose clamps.
_________________
Bob Austin
Thataway |
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easternshore22
Joined: 12 Jun 2010 Posts: 40 City/Region: Eastern Shore
State or Province: MD
C-Dory Year: 1996
C-Dory Model: 22 Angler
Vessel Name: Hunky Dory
Photos: Hunky Dory
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Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:37 am Post subject: |
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Thanks everyone for the answers.
All the lines, 10 micron filter and bulb are new from west marine. Since it is an old boat I started with that.
One more detail, the engine has 150 hours.
Does the position of the bulb really matters (I mean pointing up or down)? I never heard about that, but I will check anyways.
It seems that my next step would be to check the tanks. I see if I can borrow an external one to test before removing them.
Thanks,
Franco |
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BrentB
Joined: 15 Jul 2006 Posts: 4419 City/Region: Greenwood
State or Province: IN
Photos: BrentB
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jennykatz
Joined: 15 Dec 2003 Posts: 1678 City/Region: naples
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2006
C-Dory Model: 23 Venture
Vessel Name: Little Treasurer
Photos: Jennykatz
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Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:00 am Post subject: fuel problems |
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We had a similar problem with a f-115 Yamaha . We changed out 10 micron filter and fuel bulb that did not help . then we took out fuel pickups without the ball bearings anti siphon valves that did the trick no more fuel problems We use only non -ethanol fuel with startron and change out filters every 50-75 hrs. With all new hoses and filters it might be the fuel pickups . Good Luck Jim _________________ retired 8/08 from UAL, still working pt tm
Duck c-22 cruiser sold 6/23/08
06 Venture Cruiser with merc115CT
00 cd16 cruiser honda 40 sold 3/12 |
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BrentB
Joined: 15 Jul 2006 Posts: 4419 City/Region: Greenwood
State or Province: IN
Photos: BrentB
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Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:31 am Post subject: |
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Yes I agree... You have a fuel supply issue and need to check the entire system., and there are differences in primer bulbs and installation skywards or vertical is important ....some feel OMC/Bombardier bulbs are the best .. something to check |
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potter water
Joined: 12 Apr 2011 Posts: 1076 City/Region: Logan
State or Province: UT
C-Dory Year: 1997
C-Dory Model: R-21 Tug
Vessel Name: Poopsy
Photos: Still C-razy
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Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:48 am Post subject: |
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Roscoe, if you still have the non functioning Suzuki 40 hp motors, I'll take them off your hands. Two motors don't go bad in the very same way. Your mechanics must have been really really really bad to not have been able to get to the root of two Suzy motors going bad in the very same way and fix them at a reasonable price compared to brand new Yamahas.
At least I'd like to hear the story of what the problem was with them and what trouble shooting took place. My Suzuki's are excellent and if I run into a similar problem with mine some time, I'd like all the info I can get on other Suzy problems. _________________ You can tell a man his wife is ugly, but never ever criticize his dog, his gun, his truck or his boat.
Never let ignorance interfere with an opportunity to state a knowledgeable opinion
Testosterone Tales-Amazon.com
2006 C-Dory 22 Cruiser 2008-2014
1997 Ranger Tug 21 Classic 2016
KG7RC |
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My IRA
Joined: 18 Dec 2003 Posts: 233 City/Region: Springfield
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 2013
C-Dory Model: 23 Venture
Vessel Name: Aidiam
Photos: My IRA
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Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:56 am Post subject: |
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Before you spend lots of $ guessing what the problem might be, I would try a portable tank with different hose. _________________ Jerry and Helen
1984 Arima Explorer sold 1985
1985 Arima 17 SR sold 1992
1992 C-Dory 22 Cruiser sold 8/96
1992 OLympic 26XLF Sold 10/2000
1989 Arima 19 SR sold 2003
2004 C-Dory 25 sold 10/05
1992 Bounty 25 Offshore Pilot sold 6/2010
2006 Arima 17 SC sold 9/2012
2013 C-Dory 23 Venture |
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matt_unique
Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Posts: 1881 City/Region: Boston
State or Province: MA
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 255 Tomcat
Vessel Name: Napoleon
Photos: Napoleon
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Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:19 pm Post subject: Antisiphon valve |
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The only time I have ever had the problems you describe was when the antisiphon valve located inside the elbow fitting coming right off the tank began to malfunction. With the engines running, lean down and listen as close as you can to this valve. In my case I heard what sounded like electrical arcing (caused by the ball inside the valve not able to move properly).
If your fuel tank is below the fuel port on your engine you don't need one. Super easy fix if yes. Place antisiphon valve in a vice, take a screw driver that will fit inside, and then take a hammer and knock it out. One pop with the hammer and it will be out.
Good luck with the research. _________________ Captain Matt
Former owner of Napoleon (Tomcat) Hull #65 w/Counter Rotating Suzuki 150's. |
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 20815 City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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All good suggestions--I agree with Matt--that if all else fails, it could be the anti siphon valve.
Yes, the fuel flow out side of the bulb should be up. It has to do with the valves in the bulb. But you may notice that during priming.
I agree the separate fuel tank is a great idea--borrow one, if necessary. _________________ Bob Austin
Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
KA6PKB
Home port: Pensacola FL |
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easternshore22
Joined: 12 Jun 2010 Posts: 40 City/Region: Eastern Shore
State or Province: MD
C-Dory Year: 1996
C-Dory Model: 22 Angler
Vessel Name: Hunky Dory
Photos: Hunky Dory
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Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks everyone for the help. This is a great site!
I looked at the bulb and it was pointing down. I changed the layout to point up.
I also checked the pickup line of one tank and it came out. It was all brittled. I guess they were built before ethanol and after 18 years they reached the end of their life.
The next step will be to get a pair of new ones and also borrow a separate tank to check.
I will post with the results after the weekend.
Thanks again,
Franco |
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