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Pat Anderson
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 8553 City/Region: Birch Bay, WA
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Daydream
Photos: Daydream and Crabby Lou
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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:24 pm Post subject: Hating the Surge Brakes on King Trailer |
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As often as not when I try to back up anymore, the trailer brakes lock up. Sometimes it happens, sometimes not, no apparent reason, but if there are a lot of people at the ramp, then for sure it is bound to happen! Is there some adjustment to the surge brakes to prevent them from locking up on normal backing up? When they lock up, you have to chock the wheels and pull the surge mechanism out. They locked up multiple times just trying to back into my garage yesterday (after the oil change). We defeated it by putting a 4x4 block in to prevent the surge mechanism from moving back when I was backing up. I guess I will carry that and put it in just before backing down to launch in the future. But it drives me nuts, and if anybody knows how to adjust the surge brake mechanism, I would sure like to hear about it.
I know electric over hydraulic eliminates this issue, but can't do it myself, and I don't have a clue who I would take the trailer to up here for that kind of modification. But if I did, what would the approximate cost of having somebody do it for me, parts and labor atsome reasonable shop rate? _________________
DAYDREAM - CD25 Cruiser
CRABBY LOU - CD16 Angler (sold 2020)
Pat & Patty Anderson, C-Brat #62!
http://daydreamsloop.blogspot.com
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TyBoo
Joined: 23 Oct 2003 Posts: 5313 City/Region: Warrenton
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 1996
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruise Ship
Vessel Name: TyBoo
Photos: TyBoo
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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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Check to see if your truck backup lights come on when in reverse. The brake system has an electric solenoid to lock out the pressure line when the backup light circuit is energized. Every time I had a similar problem it was a blown fuse to the backup lights. _________________ TyBoo Mike
Sold: 1996 25' Cruise Ship
Sold: 1987 22' Cruiser |
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Sunbeam
Joined: 23 Feb 2012 Posts: 3990 City/Region: Out 'n' About
State or Province: Other
C-Dory Year: 2002
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Photos: Sunbeam
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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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Couple of questions:
1) Do your surge brakes have a solenoid? A solenoid is an electrical gizmo on the brake actuator that is wired to the reverse wiring in your tow vehicle through the trailer hitch wiring (often a blue wire). When you have this solenoid it electrically negates your trailer brakes any time you are in reverse. If you have one, then it must not be working properly (due to wiring issue, solenoid flakiness, etc).
IIRC, there are two types of solenoid, and one is better if you are trying to reverse up hill (I had this straight when I was in the throes of trailer repair, but forget the details now). At any rate, either solenoid type will disengage the trailer brakes when you are in reverse (this is not the same as electric-over-hydraulic brakes). I have a solenoid on my surge braking system that does this.
2) Does your actuator have a place for a lockout pin? If so, this is a fancier way than a 2 x 4 to "physically" lock out the brakes. It may just look like a hole through the coupler (around 3/8").
Trailer problems can be frustrating!
I was "set" on getting electric over hydraulic brakes, but then the trailer place I was at had never done them, and didn't instill confidence. So I decided to make one long trip with the surge brakes (FL to WA) and try them. Turns out, I'm perfectly happy with them (even though EOH would also be nice). That said, if the brakes did not lock out reliably, I would NOT be happy with them. My suspicion is that your problem may lie in that solenoid or "blue wire" that activates it. |
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colobear
Joined: 23 Jan 2005 Posts: 2154 City/Region: Denver
State or Province: CO
C-Dory Year: 2006
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Photos: C-Cakes
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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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Pat, The previous comments about a solenoid are probably a good guide. The solenoids seem to go bad from time to time, we've replaced ours 2-3 times. They are very easy to replace, just a single connection, they are connected to your truck's backup circuit and as Sunbeam said, usually have a blue wire. Another way to tell is if your truck to trailer connector is a four wire flat or a five wire flat. if five, you have a solenoid. If you have a round 7 pin connector see if there is a blue wire on the trailer side, if so, you have a solenoid. We carry a slightly modified "C" clamp as a "fixit" if the solenoid is bad. Look at your surge coupler on the trailer. Usually you can see a slot on the sides where the piston moves forward when pulling the trailer and slides back to engage the brakes when stopping or backing. We ground down the fixed side of the "C" clamp so it would fit in that slot. Then, with the piston forward (brakes not engaged) we put the "C" clamp across the coupler in the slot and tighten it enough to stay in place. That way it prevents the brakes from engaging while backing. Works fine, just remember to take it off or you won't have any brakes at all. _________________ Patti and Barry
formerly C-Cakes, now
rving around N. America |
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 20814 City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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To clarify what Sunbeam posted--the lock out pin hole (when present) is in the trailer tongue--and prevents the coupler from sliding backward. When the brakes engage, pulling forward will clear the brakes--and then you can put the lock put pin thru this hole just in back of the coupler/surge brake sliding mechanism. The pin which locks the latch on the coupler often fits into this hole.
The C Clamp is a good idea--we always carry a "Chain Vise Grip" which serves the same purpose. The block of wood is a little less reliable--because it is not attached to the trailer frame. The fact that you can use it, and it pinches between the coupler and forward winch post, means that the lock out solenoid is not working properly. You should also hear a "click", feel a little vibration, and the solenoid will become warm. If these do not happen--again, that the solenoid is not working. The problem could be a wiring--between reverse light circuit and the wiring to the trailer, in this wiring, or even a fuse/circuit breaker on the reverse light circuit.
In other words, you have some diagnostic work. First listen, and feel the solenoid when someone else puts the truck in reverse. Next work with the volt meter to be sure that power is getting to the solenoid.
One type of solenoid just blocks the fluid from flowing thru the line from the surge break cylinder to the brakes cylinder. The other both blocks the fluid and relieves any back pressure in the brake lines. Your master cylinder has to be of the proper type of the latter to work.
The good news is that the brakes are working! _________________ Bob Austin
Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
KA6PKB
Home port: Pensacola FL |
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Jazzmanic
Joined: 07 Feb 2005 Posts: 2231 City/Region: Seattle
State or Province: WA
Photos: C-Dancer
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:53 am Post subject: |
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Pat, we had the same exact problem on our King trailer last year. Brought it to Karl at EQ for a full workup on our lightly used 8 year old trailer. He found the problem to be a disconnected or broken ground wire to the solenoid, a very simple fix. Check the wiring to and from your solenoid, it should do the trick.
Peter |
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Alyssa Jean
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 2375 City/Region: Guemes Is.(Anacortes)
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 16 Angler
Vessel Name: Alyssa Jean
Photos: Anna Leigh and Alyssa Jean
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:19 am Post subject: |
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I had to replace the solenoid a few years ago and then it started happening again about a year ago. I found a broken ground wire between the plug and the trailer. Replaced it and it worked fine. Put a 12V tester at the solenoid and put the truck in reverse. You should get power to the meter. _________________ David and Kate
Alyssa Jean 16 Angler
Anna Leigh 22 Cruiser Sold 2005
Anna Leigh 25 Cruiser Sold 2014
K7KJR C-Brats #51 |
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Will-C
Joined: 21 Aug 2007 Posts: 2476 City/Region: Temple
State or Province: PA
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 23 Venture
Vessel Name: Will-C
Photos: Will-C
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:23 am Post subject: Hating the Surge Brakes on King Trailer |
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My guess would be about 1500 dollars for the conversion from surge to electric over hydraulic depending on the gangster doing the labor. Your truck might already have a brake controller built in. We use a Carlisle unit. They make a couple different ones we use the 1500 psi unit as we have disc brakes. You need to change the trailers front coupler , then mount it, connect the brake line, wire it, and bleed it. No solenoid needed. Adjustable braking force via the controller. Sweet. I would venture to say in our case at least much better braking and I'm sure they electric over hydraulic out performed our surge brakes with shorter stopping distances.
D.D. _________________ Chevrolet The Heart Beat Of America |
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cbgale
Joined: 07 Jul 2006 Posts: 123 City/Region: Calumet
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Raton
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:48 am Post subject: |
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My trailer has a slot that you insert a lockout plate in. It came with the trailer when new. I epoxied a piece of 1/8" steel cut to fit in the slot, to a flat magnet. When ready to back, the steel fits in the slot, and the magnet sits flat on the site of the tongue. |
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Dreamer
Joined: 01 Jan 2006 Posts: 1764 City/Region: Really Sunny SaddleBrooke
State or Province: AZ
Photos: Dreamer
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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Pat, Here's a photo of the parts I used to convert the brakes over to Electric over Hydraulic. Legally, to tow a boat your size in Canada, the brakes have to be controlled from inside the truck. Never heard of this being enforced however. If I recall correctly, there's about $600-$650 worth of parts there.
_________________ Roger
Once a C-Brat, always a C-Brat
Dreamer- Sold 25 Feb. 2013 |
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PaulNBriannaLynn
Joined: 26 Oct 2012 Posts: 757 City/Region: Fort White
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: TBD
Photos: Lorelei
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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Our King trailer does the same thing and it would drive me up the wall!!
My solution was to shove a bolt in the lockout mechanism and leave it there. Probably not the safest, or even legal in many areas but we no longer have to deal with it. Problem solved if you aks me! Sorry not very helpful, I've just found that brakes and saltwater dont mix very well. |
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 20814 City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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PaulNBriannaLynn wrote: | Our King trailer does the same thing and it would drive me up the wall!! :amgry
My solution was to shove a bolt in the lockout mechanism and leave it there. Probably not the safest, or even legal in many areas but we no longer have to deal with it. Problem solved if you aks me! Sorry not very helpful, I've just found that brakes and saltwater dont mix very well. |
Sorry to be harsh, but….This is dangerous for both you and other drivers. From Washing state DOT:
Quote: | Every trailer having a gross weight exceeding 3,000 pounds must be equipped with brakes on all wheels and capable of being applied from the towing vehicle. Any trailer whose gross weight is over 3,000 pounds must be equipped with a device that will automatically apply the brakes in case of a breakaway.
Trailers with a gross weight of 3,000 pounds or less must be equipped with brakes if the weight of the trailer(s) exceeds 40 percent of the weight of the towing vehicle. |
If you have permanently locked out the brakes--you have somewhere between 3500 and 5000 lbs of trailer, with no braking capacity. Illegal in all but 5 states--plus 3 others which have stoping distances, which you may or may not be able to stop within. If you have a wreck and the lack of brakes on the trailer was discovered (which it probably will be), it could be a very difficult situation for you.
If your trailer is just used in a parking lot and never on the road, then you can get away with it.
Taking care of brakes is not much harder then taking care of wheel bearings--and we all know what happens if we loose wheel bearings….
I feel that disc brakes do better in salt water than the drum brakes…Not that expensive to convert, and take care of. My 18 foot Caracal does not legally require brakes in most states (about 2,000 lbs), but I can tell the difference in stopping distance both when towed behind a 36,000 lb RV with 16" disc air brakes or the Yukon XL--also with disc brakes. |
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lloyds
Joined: 02 Aug 2005 Posts: 1724 City/Region: sublimity
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 1996
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: undecided
Photos: 1996 22 Cruiser (Lloyds)
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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I too have a King and if I back up too suddenly they will instantly engage. I just ease it backwards. If it does lock then I just nudge it forward and it unlocks. To back up a hill or over something I have to put something in the hole to keep the hitch from sliding back, as when I back into my driveway. I will have to check for the solenoid people are talking about. But I know the backup switch on my transmission is only working intermittently so maybe I do have a neat feature which I haven't yet used. |
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Sunbeam
Joined: 23 Feb 2012 Posts: 3990 City/Region: Out 'n' About
State or Province: Other
C-Dory Year: 2002
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Photos: Sunbeam
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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I mentioned above how I ended up being happy with my surge brakes (much to my surprise), but I forgot that you are towing a 25, not a 22 like I am. For that I would be more tempted to consider EOH. (Not that you shouldn't fix your reverse lockout in the meantime - there's no reason you should have to put up with the aggravation of it being faulty!) |
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Pat Anderson
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 8553 City/Region: Birch Bay, WA
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Daydream
Photos: Daydream and Crabby Lou
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks, all. My truck does have an electric brake controller, for the fifth wheel. Don't know if it is wired to the connector for the boat trailer. Roger, I would go your route if I could...highly doubtful that I could start with a pile of parts and have anything that worked at the end of the day. I wouldn't know a solenoid if I tripped over it. Or how to access any of the wires in there to check with a volt meter.
I think I do need electric over hydraulic brakes, too many people seem to have had the same issue I am having with the surge brakes. Bad solenoids, broken ground wires, whatever...when it doesn't work for that many people, something is out of whack with the whole deal.
For the time being, putting in the piece of 4 x 4 to keep the coupler from sliding back when I get to the launch ramp seems like the best short term solution. I would not tow with the surge brakes disabled, they work fine for additional braking when I brake the truck. It is just the backing up thing. |
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