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Bay Star vs. Sea Star on 22 Cruiser: Understanding the diffs
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Kushtaka



Joined: 17 Dec 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Bay Star vs. Sea Star on 22 Cruiser: Understanding the d Reply with quote

Will-C wrote:
Plus no matter how hardy the individual from Alaska might be the boating season in Florida is all year long.


365 days a year up here too. In fact, I'm heading out tomorrow to grab some winter kings! It does take a little extra courage to head out on the salt during any month that has an "R" in it though. But my NFB teleflex cable will be stiff as all get out in the cold. Maybe this will be its last voyage! I'll be thinking about this thread the whole time I'm wrestling that beast.
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Les Lampman
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh boy! I'm not sure I want to wade into all this but if I had any common sense I wouldn't be in the boat business to start with!

Okay, to start with same basic information:

The SeaStar system will run just under $1,000 (street price) if you buy the kit (helm pump, steering cylinder, steering fluid) and the hoses (not included in the kit).

The BayStar systems will run just over $500 (street price) if you buy the kit, which is everything needed to install the system (including tools and a video).

So really, the SeaStar system is just a bit under twice as much as the BayStar. Don't jump to conclusions here though, there's still only about $450 (or thereabouts) difference in the systems and typically I wouldn't consider that a make-or-break decision for the boats most of us are concerned with.

There are quite a few other considerations:

The BayStar uses 5/16" hard nylon tubing for steering lines, the tubing can be cut as needed and compression fittings are used for connections. This makes precise lengths and adding things (like an autopilot) pretty easy. The small lines are also a bit easier to route in small spaces.

The SeaStar uses 3/8" high-pressure hoses with swaged ends. The hoses must be ordered to length to fit the application and changes to the system later require either new hoses or new swaged ends (usually done by a specialist shop). Typically one is restricted to ordering stock lengths of Teleflex hose and they're relatively expensive (~$140 for the pair used on a CD22). Since they're a fixed length they're not quite as easy to fit since you have to deal with any extra length that's not needed.

For instance, if you add an autopilot or second station to a boat with SeaStar then you usually have to pull (and not use) the steering hoses already in the boat. Then you need to order new hoses, and each set is expensive (the 2-footers are still over $100/set). The SeaStar fittings are also more expensive than the BayStar compression fittings.

The bottom line is that by the time a full steering system is installed with an autopilot the SeaStar ends up costing quite a bit more with all the added components.

Over the years the BayStar system has seen a complete redesign, it's a completely different system than it was when introduced. Now the BayStar is really just a smaller SeaStar system sharing the same basic design of the helm pump and steering cylinders.

My viewpoint is that the BayStar is, say, a small pickup (like a Toyota Tacoma); the SeaStar is a full size pickup (like a Tundra). If you choose to drive a Tacoma because is does what you need it to that doesn't mean that you've compromised and purchased a lesser truck just because you could have bought a full sized truck. I don't think Tacoma drivers feel inferior to Tundra drivers!

Since the design of the two systems is so similar now what Teleflex is really doing is just offering two "sizes" to fit a myriad of applications. From a marketing standpoint they're going to sell a lot more $500 BayStar systems to small boat owners (typically under 20-feet) than they are $1,000 SeaStar systems (if that's all they offered) so it makes sense to have two systems.

The BayStar system is intended to be a simple single-station system that's a DIY solution for small boats; it even comes packaged just for that market. Teleflex does not officially endorse adding an autopilot and/or a second station to a BayStar system. When I checked with their engineers about this years ago they told me that it's not an engineering limitation and that it would work fine (and it does); rather they (Teleflex) had made the decision not to write manuals on how to do twins, or autopilots, or second stations, and they weren't going to produce any tie-bars or hardware (for the BayStar) to accommodate those situations. They told me they had no reservations in us adding what we wanted to but that we were going to have to figure how to do it and what components were necessary.

The Sea Star system is intended for professional installation (for the most part) and there are a wide range of special fittings and components to accommodate almost any boat (it's also used on inboard boats).

We replaced seals on both the BayStar and SeaStar systems and haven't noticed a lot of difference in which system needed the seals. That excepts the early BayStar systems (composite helms and early cylinders) that did need seals replaced all too often (hence a lot of the ensuing changes).

Personally, I think the choice merits thought but not a lot of anguish. If you use a BayStar system in the correct application (150hp and below, and not a performance boat) it does a fine job. That said, if one is more comfortable with the bigger-is-better viewpoint then the extra cost of the SeaStar system is a small price to pay for peace-of-mind. There are plenty of applications where the SeaStar system is *the* choice, but CD22's, Marinaut's, and the like aren't one of them unless there are some specific requirements or you just absolutely want it for personal reasons.

I might also add that I don't agree with an earlier observation I saw regarding loss of steering with the failure of a hydraulic steering system. It is true if you loose the hydraulic steering system that it no longer controls the engine. That said, it leaves the engine in a condition (loose) where it can be turned by other methods (hand, boat hook lashed to it, etc). By comparison, I've dealt with many mechanical systems that failed and left the engine locked in one position until the mechanical system could be removed (or fixed). The loss of steering is very situational and any particular instance could leave you wishing for one system or the other...depending.

Hope all this verbiage helps!

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Les

www.marinautboats.com
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rogerbum



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Les Lampman wrote:
<stuff clipped>
My viewpoint is that the BayStar is, say, a small pickup (like a Toyota Tacoma); the SeaStar is a full size pickup (like a Tundra). If you choose to drive a Tacoma because is does what you need it to that doesn't mean that you've compromised and purchased a lesser truck just because you could have bought a full sized truck. I don't think Tacoma drivers feel inferior to Tundra drivers!
<more stuff clipped>

But as a Tundra driver do you think, I feel superior to the Tacoma driver? Or should I? Laughing

But in all seriousness, thanks for your input to the thread.

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Sunbeam



Joined: 23 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Les Lampman wrote:
Oh boy! I'm not sure I want to wade into all this but if I had any common sense I wouldn't be in the boat business to start with!


Les,

Thank you so much for taking the time to "wade in" and provide your thoughts, experience, and product information Thumbs Up As the thread has progressed it seems that I'm not the only one looking to change over to hydraulic steering, so I think your post will benefit many -- and the information you have added is not necessarily the type one can find just by "reading the specs." Especially when it comes to something like a 22 Cruiser which is not really a big boat, but not quite a small boat either (at least in my mind).

The part about adding an autopilot, and how it relates to the hoses, was something I had not even thought of, and it's good info as I will definitely be doing that (since I currently have a Sportpilot that is meant to be used with the cable steering and will "go" from my boat when I make the switch). Actually, that's one reason I have decided to go ahead with the hydraulic steering soon: The Raymarine "1000" autpilot never quite appealed to me, but now it sounds like there are other options (ha, another thread!).

Thanks again,
Sunbeam
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Sunbeam



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think now that I will most likely go with the Bay Star system, however the one thing I still kind of "want" from the Sea Star system is the tilt helm. Not because I tend to actively tilt wheels, but more because I'm not very tall, and so if I set up the (fixed) Bay Star helm and the boat seat up where it's comfortable for me, it would likely not work for anyone else (friends who come along, etc.) - I think they wouldn't be able to get their legs under it. That might be an issue.

I think I'll look into an idea I read earlier in the thread, which is could one use the Sea Star tilt helm with the Bay Star system? I may find out that the different line types (or some other reason) precludes it, but.... I've got at least all of January to consider the options so why not.

Another option might be the Teleflex H5419 "wedge" discussed above.... perhaps I will call Teleflex to see if it can be used with Bay Star (it says Sea Star but it sounds like sometimes things can be adapted if a person wants to figure it out).



Edit: I found an older thread wherein someone did install this with their Bay Star helm. See here if interested:

http://www.c-brats.com/viewtopic.php?t=11748&sid=44dae8bed6b2eceff42e1a5f600a4ab6




Next.... autopilot options...

Sunbeam
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Les Lampman
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a BayStar tilt helm.

This is a link to one on eBay (I used that since it has photos).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Teleflex-Baystar-Hydraulic-Sport-Tilt-Steering-Helm-Part-HH4315-New-Boat-Part-/121130997702?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gear&hash=item1c33f857c6&vxp=mtr

Les
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Sunbeam



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Les Lampman wrote:
There is a BayStar tilt helm.


Wow, thank you ever so much! I had looked on Teleflex's website and somehow not found it. Sweet Thumbs Up

For myself, I now don't think I have any reason to go with Sea Star for my particular boat/comfort level and will almost certainly go Bay Star. And for others, well, there is a lot of info in the thread to aid in informed decision making.

Sunbeam
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rogerbum



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sunbeam - you can find it here on the manufacturer's site .
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Sunbeam



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Roger. You know (and somewhat embarrassingly), I think I may have seen this at some point in the past before I was "serious" about upgrading my steering. I think I thought it looked like it was going to project super far into the helm area (see photo below.... if all of that is aft of the helm "wall"...?) and decided maybe it wasn't so slick.

However, now that I *am* serious about upgrading the helm, and have all of the information from this thread, I will contact Teleflex and find out just exactly how that Bay Star tilt fits in practice. I think if it really does project that far (i.e. both sections aft of the bulkhead) it would be too much in my 22, which would put me back to either the Sea Star tilt helm (does not project very far - see photos in Kerri-On's album) or that angled/set-in "fixed" bracket for the Bay Star that I illustrated just above.

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Les Lampman
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sunbeam wrote:
Thanks, Roger. You know (and somewhat embarrassingly), I think I may have seen this at some point in the past before I was "serious" about upgrading my steering. I think I thought it looked like it was going to project super far into the helm area (see photo below.... if all of that is aft of the helm "wall"...?) and decided maybe it wasn't so slick.

However, now that I *am* serious about upgrading the helm, and have all of the information from this thread, I will contact Teleflex and find out just exactly how that Bay Star tilt fits in practice. I think if it really does project that far (i.e. both sections aft of the bulkhead) it would be too much in my 22, which would put me back to either the Sea Star tilt helm (does not project very far - see photos in Kerri-On's album) or that angled/set-in "fixed" bracket for the Bay Star that I illustrated just above.



Hi,

In regards to the helm in the photo:

The part that's on the helm side of the bulkhead is about the same size as the normal BayStar helm. It contains the tilt mechanism, which is covered by the rubber bellows.

The part that's on the berth side of the bulkhead is the helm pump, it mates right up to the backside of the helm console and then the tilt mechanism is connected to the projecting shaft on the front side of the helm console (front side faces the helm seat).

So, yes, in essence you have the helm behind the dash and something just about the same size on the front of the dash.

That said, the version shown in the photo isn't different than the version used on Kerri-On in dimension. That is the distance from the front side (helm side) of the dash to the wheel is the same with either model, and the helm pump behind the dash is the same in both models.

Basically, there are three models of tilt mechanisms available: 1) Classic Tilt, 2) Sport Tilt Plus, and 3) Sport tilt. The actual mechanism is the same in each case, the thing that changes is the look of the housing that hides the tilt mechanism.

The one on Kerri-On is the Classic Tilt (square mount on the dash) and isn't available on the BayStar system. The Sport Tilt Plus looks just like the Classic Tilt but has a round mounting bezel. Both the Classic Tilt and Sport Tilt Plus use hard molded housings. The Sport Tilt model uses the bellows.

The Sort Tilt Plus and the Sport Tilt are available for the BayStar system. Here is a link (I hope that works) for the installation manual for the helms:

http://www.seastarsolutions.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/765703C.pdf

Les
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Sunbeam



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Les Lampman wrote:
In regards to the helm in the photo:

The part that's on the helm side of the bulkhead is about the same size as the normal BayStar helm.


Once again your information is so very helpful. Thanks for taking the time to explain it. From the look of the photo (because that section that you confirmed is forward of the bulkhead looks like the part that is aft of the bulkhead on the non-tilt, at least to my inexperienced eye) and the various names (Tilt, Sport Tilt, etc.), plus knowing that some things can be made to work with either system even though they don't officially promote it.... well, I was thoroughly confused as to what my options were!

Now I'm squared away and can make a decision, thanks to you taking the time to clarify things. Thank you so much! (And thanks to Joe for writing to you; I didn't want to "bother" you but I'm glad Joe did Very Happy)

For others following along, here is a photo of Kerri-On's wheel/helm area - that's a Sea Star system with a Classic Tilt (I now know).

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SEA3PO



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HooRay i I finally fixed that darn leak in my helm..... I just replaced it with a new SeaStar helm....easy fix... no more leaks.... and everything works just perfect....

Years ago I put a price on my aggervation... and it is $50... for $50 I will get all huffy for a few minutes... but if it keeps making me mad then it is $50 every time I get bent.... so the way I figure it, that $350 cost for the new helm has already paid off...so it really didn't cost me a thing.

(My Boat...My Rules)

Joel
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SENSEI



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I am looking to order a Baystar and there are two configurations for this item
a 20 ft. hose or a 30 ft. hose
so which one should I buy for the 22 classic
I suppose I can go out to the shed and measure but if someone already knows the answer it would be appreciated

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Pedromo



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roger
I ordered the 20 ft length. It juuuust fits, with a bit of slack,
It is very easy to install and purge.
It works great
Pedro
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