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Emurph8
Joined: 23 Nov 2012
Posts: 33
City/Region: South Jersey
State or Province: NJ
C-Dory Year: 1990
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Murphy's Law
Photos: Emurph8 (Name TBD)
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 Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:02 pm Post subject: New C Dory owner here, fuel tank issue |
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Hello all,
I just took delivery of a 1990 C Dory 22 cruiser. I am planning on cleaning it up real nice and fixing and upgrading a few things over the winter. I love this site and have found a ton of great info so far. My first project is to get the fuel gauge and selector switch squared away. The fuel gauge has a switch that moves from port to starboard and reads fine on the starboard tank. On the port tank it used to jump around when I held the switch. I thought maybe I had a bad connection so I cleaned off the connection on the top of the tank and now the gauge doesn't move at all. So much for a quick fix! I'm thinking or replacing the fuel sending unit since they seem to go bad often from what I've read. I need to know what kind to get and where to get it? Is it necessary to pull the tank out to remove the sensor? Also the selector switch is only marked with port on it the starboard and off positions are worn off, is there a picture of where each position is so I know which tank I'm using? Or where would I get a new one of these to replace? I love this boat and can't wait to get it on the water! Thanks for helping the new guy"
ED
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Emurph |
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Sunbeam
Joined: 23 Feb 2012
Posts: 3990
City/Region: Out 'n' About
State or Province: Other
C-Dory Year: 2002
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Photos: Sunbeam
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:18 am Post subject: |
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Ed,
Welcome, and congrats on your new C-Dory! I can't answer your question, but I just thought for some context I would mention that later C-Dory 22's have translucent plastic fuel tanks, so it's possible to see the fuel level just by looking at the side of the tank (hence no fuel senders and gauges). I think the transition might have been sometime in the late 1990's, as my 2002 came with the translucent tanks. (I'm guessing yours has the rectangular, sort of terra-cotta colored tanks with the grooves in them for flat metal hold-downs.)
This means that the majority of 22's have the translucent tanks (because they made a lot more of them through the 2000's). I figured I'd let you know just in case you didn't get a lot of responses and wondered why (because the gang here is super helpful, as you'll see).
By the way, just in case you ever want to replace yours, the newer tanks are available for purchase. I replaced my tanks with them this summer. They are made by Moeller (the part numbers and sketches are in my album) and can be ordered through a Moeller dealer. They are translucent and hold 23 gallons each (yours would be around 18 gallons each if you have the ones I was describing above).
Again: Congrats 
Sunbeam 
PS: I had to laugh about your "quick fix." Isn't that just the way?  |
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Emurph8
Joined: 23 Nov 2012
Posts: 33
City/Region: South Jersey
State or Province: NJ
C-Dory Year: 1990
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Murphy's Law
Photos: Emurph8 (Name TBD)
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| Thanks! Of course I just topped off the fuel and stabilized it for the winter. But a see-through tank would be very nice. I will research that project. Price and difficulty level? Any info on that transfer switch? Thanks again! |
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jennykatz
Joined: 15 Dec 2003
Posts: 1679
City/Region: naples
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2006
C-Dory Model: 23 Venture
Vessel Name: Little Treasurer
Photos: Jennykatz
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:05 am Post subject: tanks |
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I had a 1999 cruiser with the older 18 gallon tanks . I believe the 2000 model had translucent 20 gallon fuel tanks then again changing them to 25 gallon tanks .in 2005 ?
We now have a cc-23 with twin 30 gallon alum. tanks .I like the translucent ones the best.
We had no issues with our 18 gallons tanks when I got the alum tanks we had to take out the pickup tubes and redew them
Jim
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retired 8/08 from UAL, still working pt tm
Duck c-22 cruiser sold 6/23/08
06 Venture Cruiser with merc115CT
00 cd16 cruiser honda 40 sold 3/12 |
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Sea Wolf
Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 8650
City/Region: Redding
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 1987
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sea Wolf
Photos: Sea Wolf
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:09 am Post subject: |
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Emurph8-
Hi!
1. Contact Mollner for the sender unit. They'll know which unit you need, and once you have the part number, you can buy it from them, or order it with any good marine parts supplier. I have replaced one of mine, and it's easy.
2. As far as the switch goes, I had the same issue. They do still make the same switch, but it's simple to take a felt marker out next time you use the boat, and mark the positions.
Run the boat for a considerable period, and note which tank goes down on fuel, reading the fuel gauges or single gauge, since you have only one functional, and using process of elimination. Mark "P" or "S" on the valve face where the lever points in order to note the Port or Starboard tank fuel supply. Switch positions with the lever, and find the other tank draw position and mark it. There is an "Off" position between Port and Starboard. Mark it, too.
Possible complication: My valve has multiple positions. You, too, may find more than just the three detents in the valve position. Mine is not just "Port-Off-Starboard', but about 4-5 other "no fuel draw" positions as well (!) The P-O-S positions are at 8, 6, and 4 o'clock, and the others distributed around the clock above and around those noted. Ignore them, since they do nothing.
Now the felt pen will fade with time, at least mind did. I therefore made Red, Black, and Green washers out of plastic, and placed them at the Port, Off, and Starboard positions, permanently through bolting them through the engine well panel with machine screws. Hopefully, this is the end of the guessing game!
Your boat may be slightly different, but I hope this helps you solve the issues.
Good Luck!
Joe. 
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Sea Wolf, C-Brat #31
Lake Shasta, California
  
"Most of my money I spent on boats and women. The rest I squandered'. " -Annonymous |
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Will-C
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 2476
City/Region: Temple
State or Province: PA
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 23 Venture
Vessel Name: Will-C
Photos: Will-C
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:11 pm Post subject: New C Dory owner here, fuel tank issue |
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My fuel selector switch which is on page 6 of my c-brat album photograph 95 shows off at 12:00 oclock Starboard at the 9:00 oclock position and port at 6:00. Hope this helps.
Good luck your new water toy! 
D.D
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Chevrolet The Heart Beat Of America |
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Sunbeam
Joined: 23 Feb 2012
Posts: 3990
City/Region: Out 'n' About
State or Province: Other
C-Dory Year: 2002
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Photos: Sunbeam
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Emurph8 wrote: | | ... a see-through tank would be very nice. I will research that project. Price and difficulty level? |
I don't have exact figures, but the tanks were around $200-$250 apiece (they're not identical like yours, but are mirror image port- and starboard-specific tanks). They are Moeller part numbers FT2339 (starboard) and FT2340 (port). Here is a drawing of one of them (both are in my album here on C-Brats):
I would say the difficulty level is low, if you are a person who is comfortable with doing boat projects. Probably the most difficult thing is wrestling with the large fuel-fill hose. Also, there can be a bit of mission creep, but in a good way (but a bit finicky and time-consuming). For example, I decided to take out the whole system, and so I dug out the unprotected core around the fuel fills and infilled with thickened epoxy, I replaced all the hoses, I re-configured the cleats holding the tanks in (on my era boat they went into the hull core and were a problem waiting to (starting to) happen so I had to deal with that), etc.
That said, with modern methods, putting in the new tanks (which I'm in process of doing) is a relative breeze. For example, I'm using Weld-Mount footman loops to anchor the hold down straps (they just glue on), and fiberglass angle for the cleats ("glued" on with thickened epoxy). New hose is relatively easy to work with (vs. old, hardened hose), new clamps can have the tightening screws positioned just so, making them easier to reach, etc.
As a side note, I'm guessing your boat has the metal, sort of "L-shaped" hold down brackets for the tanks. I would suggest taking a very close look at those and probably taking steps to protect the hull core. My boat had been stored indoors 99% of its life, and only had 50 hours on the original engine. And yet, the one place I had damp/wet core was in the fastener holes for the fuel-tank hold down (cleats in my case). I think that's because any water ever in the cockpit would drain to the front edge of them and then just naturally want to flow into the holes. Luckily, the damage was still very easily eliminated, but I hate to think how it could have been if my boat had been outside for ten years.
From what I gather the fuel tank succession was this:
1) The twin, 18-gallon symmetrical rectangular tanks (up to around 2000) (with an optional all-the-way-across larger metal tank).
2) Port and starboard (mirror image) 25-gallon poly tanks (around 2000 to ....2004-ish?). I have the Moeller part numbers for these, but Moeller doesn't own the rights to make them, and neither does the current C-Dory builder. I guess they are probably pretty much unobtainable (probably rights are still with a defunct C-Dory builder).
3) Port and starboard (mirror image) 23-gallon poly tanks. These are used by the current C-Dory builder, but Moeller does have the right to make them, and they can be ordered through any Moeller dealer (or through "any" boat dealer via a Moeller supplier, such as Fisheries Supply).
One thing I'm not certain on:
Noted on the drawings for these 23-gallon tanks, is that on a certain date they were made 1" shorter (less high). My guess is that either when they switched from screwed in cleats to molded in ones, they needed the extra room to get them in and out; or, if not then, then when they went to a whole molded flat cockpit sole, for the same reason. What I don't know is if they are now less than 23 gallons, or if that is what made them 23 and not 25. They are wider than my previous 25-gallon tanks, so maybe that's in there somewhere.
One thing is that there is plenty of room above the tanks (compared to my older ones), so I'm now able to mount some equipment there.
Sunbeam |
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Emurph8
Joined: 23 Nov 2012
Posts: 33
City/Region: South Jersey
State or Province: NJ
C-Dory Year: 1990
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Murphy's Law
Photos: Emurph8 (Name TBD)
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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Wow! Amazing amount of info! Thank you! I appreciate the picture of the fuel selector switch. I'm curious about the glue down weld man loops? Any pictures of that? I wasn't crazy about those angled metal tank clamps screwed right down into the hull! I would love the translucent tanks and give up the fuel gauge all together not to mention these tanks are 22 years old! I will contact Moller and see if I can get these.
Thanks again! |
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Emurph8
Joined: 23 Nov 2012
Posts: 33
City/Region: South Jersey
State or Province: NJ
C-Dory Year: 1990
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Murphy's Law
Photos: Emurph8 (Name TBD)
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Sunbeam,
I've been researching this and I really like what you did here. Are those old metal clamps screwed into the deck in the front and back? So 8 clamps 3 screws each? I don't like that. Did you glue the footman strap mounts front and back and use some kind of plastic strapping to hold down the tanks? I emailed moeller but I see they won't sell me directly? Where did ou get ours? Sorry for all the questions. I appreciate your help
E Murph |
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Sunbeam
Joined: 23 Feb 2012
Posts: 3990
City/Region: Out 'n' About
State or Province: Other
C-Dory Year: 2002
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Photos: Sunbeam
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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Hi E Murph,
Glad you can use the info I think I would do the same as you; that is, forget about the senders/gauges, and just replace the tanks with the new poly ones. Then you don't need gauges and senders, and you can overhaul your hold-down situation at the same time.
| Emurph8 wrote: | Hi Sunbeam,
Are those old metal clamps screwed into the deck in the front and back? So 8 clamps 3 screws each? I don't like that. |
I would be (very) surprised if the fasteners holding your tank hold-downs down were not simply screwed into the balsa core. Not that this is at all ideal, but.... it probably is. I don't blame you for not liking the idea! My set up had long starboard cleats, but they were screwed into the core (this was not changed until somewhere around 2006, although post-2006 there were still plenty of other core penetrations; but they did get rid of that particular one).
What I did is remove those, enlarge the holes enough so that I could get in there and get any wet core out (this meant I got up to around a 1/2" hole on some of them; others were dry and I just enlarged them enough to be able to clean them up), paint them with neat epoxy, then fill them with thickened epoxy. I have yet to re-gelcoat or paint, but I have tape over them until then to shield the epoxy from UV. In any case, the core is now protected. I also eliminated the holes from fasteners holding metal footman loops in place behind the tanks, and a few that held hoses to the transom (bilge pump). Ah... clean slate!
[quote="Emurph8"Did you glue the footman strap mounts front and back and use some kind of plastic strapping to hold down the tanks? I emailed moeller but I see they won't sell me directly? [/quote]
For the new tanks, I got some rubber sheeting to put under them, and I'm going to hold them in with footman loops (the Weld Mount ones - sounds like you found those online), plus I'll put in some pre-made fiberglass angles as "cleats" ahead of them and on the inside edge - "glued" down with thickened epoxy probably (might change mind and use Weld Mount studs). I use the plain FRP angle (dark green) from McMaster Carr.
The forward angle is probably not strictly needed, but it can't hurt, and it will give me a place to anchor the strap in front, plus the lower edge of either the decorative fiberglass fuel-tank-hiding panels (these came into play on later boats), or the lower edge of a Sunbrella panel. I obtained a set of the fiberglass ones and had planned on using those, but once I saw all the (gobs!) of space above the fuel tanks, I started thinking I might like to keep it more accessible (kind of hard to get behind the hard panels; easy to lift up a Sunbrella one). Haven't decided on that yet.
So I'll probably only have a footman loop behind the tank. Previously it was on the "floor" right near the transom junction; I think it might be better to have it nearer the top of the tank (still behind it on the transom), but I haven't glued it in place yet.
I'm also going to use some of the Weld Mount clamp holders to hold the bilge pump hoses (for which I've filled the holes that previously went into the transom core). (Though I haven't put in the footman loops for the tanks yet, I did already use them as part of my battery hold-down system, and I like them.)
| Emurph8 wrote: | | I emailed moeller but I see they won't sell me directly? Where did ou get ours? Sorry for all the questions. I appreciate your help |
No problem! I just went through the same thing, so why not share the info? I too, called Moeller and no dice. They said to get them through a dealer, which I found can mean a couple of different things. Here are the options I know about:
1) Get them from a dealer who is more of a "distributor" type place. For example, Fisheries Supply is a wholesaler but also sells to retail customers.
2) Get them from a "smaller" dealer who orders from one of the bigger wholesale places, or Moeller directly (Moeller did give me some names, but I forget them all; I think Land 'N' Sea was one of them, which is a name that will be familiar to many boating product retailers.
3) Get them from Triton Marine, in Ferndale Washington, who are the current C-Dory builder (they get them through Fisheries Supply). They are more of a telephone or "stop in" type of place, so I would consider that as an option only if you go there.
The tanks are sort of a special order. That is, there is no extra charge, and they have the molds to make them no problem, but they make them upon request vs. just stocking them.
Sunbeam
PS: No, I don't have stock in Weld-Mount  I do like to use them though - especially when it keeps me from having to penetrate core. |
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Emurph8
Joined: 23 Nov 2012
Posts: 33
City/Region: South Jersey
State or Province: NJ
C-Dory Year: 1990
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Murphy's Law
Photos: Emurph8 (Name TBD)
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:56 am Post subject: |
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| Thanks again for the quick replies and great info! Let me know when your tired of all my questions! I'm not sure I understand the fiberglass angles your using? It seems to me you could run some kind of strapping through the footman loop? What am I missing? My boat does not have the decorative panels but a nice piece of canvas that covers the entire area and can be flipped ip onto the transom area. Seems like a good setup and doesn't need any of those nasty screws into the core! Once you enlarged your holes did you just let it dry out a while before filling in the holes? I'm planning on putting the boat in my garage in the next few days and once that's done I can get to work on this. Thanks! |
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jerry97230
Joined: 10 Jul 2012
Posts: 80
City/Region: Portland
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C NILE
Photos: C NILE
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:14 am Post subject: |
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On my boat, each tank feeds just one engine. The selector switch has been disconnected.
I feel that this is a better system as you avoid the possible problem of both engines going down in case of bad fuel.
Keeps the boat balanced a little better also.
Means two filters and filling both tanks, but I like it.
Jerry |
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Sunbeam
Joined: 23 Feb 2012
Posts: 3990
City/Region: Out 'n' About
State or Province: Other
C-Dory Year: 2002
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Photos: Sunbeam
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Emurph8 wrote: | | Thanks again for the quick replies and great info! Let me know when your tired of all my questions! |
Actually, one of the things I like about this forum is the great exchange of information - I've benefitted from it many times. So ask away!
| Emurph8 wrote: | | I'm not sure I understand the fiberglass angles your using? It seems to me you could run some kind of strapping through the footman loop? What am I missing? |
The original set-up for the tanks on my boat (and subsequent ones) was to have plastic lumber (Starboard) cleats on the forward and inside edges of the tank. They were something like 1" x 1" in cross section. These are the cleats that were screwed into the hull core. In addition to the cleats, there were straps going over the tanks fore-and-aft. These were anchored aft to a (screwed in... natch) stainless footman loop at the transom/hull corner area, and then a forward footman loop that was attached to the forward cleat. The forward cleat was also used to attach decorative, 3/4 height Starboard panels that "hid" the fuel tanks.
Here is a photo that gives you the general idea of the original set-up on the ~2000-2006 boats. The difference is that this owner (sorry, I forget whose boat it is!) has already removed the Starboard cleats that were screwed into the hull, and has replaced them with some material fiberglassed to the hull (not sure, if a wood core or what; this is where I'm using the pre-made fiberglass angle). The metal angle screwed to the forward cleat is like the original setup, and held the forward footman loop plus the decorative cover (which is not in place in this photo).
I'm not sure if this is the 23-gallon tank that's available now, but it looks like it very well could be.
Sooo, I took all that out and am going back in with new materials. I decided to keep the strap concept, because it's easy to do and does provide some security. And I decided to also go back in with "cleats" (only I'm using angle). On the inside edges they will keep the tanks from sliding toward the center of the boat, and on the front, although maybe not strictly necessary (since the strap is there), they will give me a place to anchor the bottom of either the decorative fiberglass panel or a Sunbrella panel (I'll probably also use this angle to secure the front of the strap). And they do provide additional security.
| Emurph8 wrote: | | Once you enlarged your holes did you just let it dry out a while before filling in the holes? |
I just dug all of the wet or even damp core out until I had just dry-as-a-bone core, then I filled the holes with epoxy/thickened epoxy. I've had to re-core boats before (much larger projects ), and I just don't even want to think about any moisture in there! Now, if you found that there was wet core extending further out than you could reach through a reasonably sized hole, then you would have to make some decisions about how to handle it (there are various ways of course). I guess at this point I'd say, get the screws out, and if there is damp core then enlarge the holes slightly so you can dig around and see what you have in there. If you get TOO large a hole, then you'll want to patch it with epoxy and fiberglass cloth, but small/round holes can just be filled with epoxy; I think I used around a 3/8" bit. The "core sample" on the drill bit can be informative. I like to use an old dental pick to get in there and pull out some core. Depending on hole size and access you can also use a Dremel. What I do is excise the core in an "undercut" way -- so the diameter of the core removed is larger than the diameter of the hole in the surface skin, and the new epoxy flows under the lip when you fill the hole again.
| Emurph8 wrote: | | I'm planning on putting the boat in my garage in the next few days and once that's done I can get to work on this. Thanks! |
That will be fantastic. Nothing like a dry, covered work space - especially when doing core work
Sunbeam |
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Emurph8
Joined: 23 Nov 2012
Posts: 33
City/Region: South Jersey
State or Province: NJ
C-Dory Year: 1990
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Murphy's Law
Photos: Emurph8 (Name TBD)
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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Awesome info Sunbeam! I can't wait to get started! First thing is to get all that gas I just put in back out! I got a quote from Fisheries supply on the tanks ($250 each just like you said!) I am going to get them ordered today if possible! These are Deffinetely the tanks that fit my boat and the gas level can be seen right through the tank? These weld man parts seem to have a couple choices of adhesive. Which one are you using? Again, thanks for all the help I think I will be spending a lot of time on this forum. After this project I plan to upgrade the kicker motor on the boat.
E Murph |
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rogerbum
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 5928
City/Region: Kenmore
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 255 Tomcat
Vessel Name: Meant to be
Photos: SeaDNA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| jerry97230 wrote: | On my boat, each tank feeds just one engine. The selector switch has been disconnected.
I feel that this is a better system as you avoid the possible problem of both engines going down in case of bad fuel.
Keeps the boat balanced a little better also.
Means two filters and filling both tanks, but I like it.
Jerry |
That's the way my Tomcat was plumbed when I bought it. One issue with such a system (and no cross over valve) is that should one engine fail (for whatever reason), the fuel in that tank is no longer accessible to the other engine. While this is not usually a problem, it can be on a long trip in which you've planned your fuel usage for a 25-33% reserve. Suppose you have two 20 gal tanks, you get 3nm/gal and you're doing a 90 mile round trip or 90 miles to the next fuel stop and you lose one engine midway. At the 45 mile point you've used about 15 gals. 7.5 from each tank. One engine fails. You now have another 45 miles to go on the 12.5 gals remaining in the one tank unless you have a way of getting fuel from the other tank to the working engine. 45nm/12.5= 3.6 nm/gal. You can get that (and more) if you run at hull speed, have no current against you and are not in really sloppy conditions. However, if you want to run a 10-12 kts (on a single engine), you won't be planing and you'll be at the worst part of the fuel efficiency curve. So bottom line, on this hypothetical trip, you're running close on fuel unless you can move the fuel from the one tank to the remaining engine. If your fuel lines are long enough (they rarely are), you may be able to move the fuel line between engines but I would still recommend a cross over valve between your two fuel sources and a valve between each tank and each engine. That will allow you to operates as you currently do with each engine drawing from it's own tank and also allow both engines or either engine to draw from either or both tanks.
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Roger on Meant to be |
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