Furuno vs. Garmin...

[Casey]

(I'm NOT trying to pick a fight here...!)

The November issue of Powerboat Reports has an article comparing the Furuno NavNet system against the (new) Garmin Marine Network. The article does not contain information on the new Garmin radar, which is due out in early 2005.

First sentence: "Furuno's NavNet bests the new Garmin Marine Network with more options and a better 10-inch screen."

If you're in the market, or just interested, and want additional information - contact me.

Casey
C-Dory Naknek
( lorencasebeer@aol.com )

[Larry K]

Still debating which Radar system I need –want –(OK - would like). Maybe I should just buy a system and stop thinking about it. Na - I have more time than money right now.

Dose anyone have a thought on the benefits (pros & cons) between the two systems other than price? The Garmin is new and pricier that’s all I know. I do have the Garmin GPSmap 176C that I would like to interface with the system. The Radar will be used most in close range.

Furuno - New Radome Antenna adjusts antenna rotation speed based on the range in use, 30rpm in short range and 24rpm in mid/long ranges.

Garmin - The GMR 20 (2kW radome) features a narrow 3.6-degree horizontal and 25-degree vertical beamwidth, which delivers accurate target acquisition and better penetration through rain and fog.

[C-Bill]

What's a Garmin?

Actually, I don't know much about Garmin. I equipped my boat with Furuno and I've been pleased with it so far (14 years). I did hear a commercial fisherman complaining about the fact he couldn't get a Japanese color tube for his depth finder which is the same model as mine. He had to purchase a replacement color tube made in Korea, which was not of the same quality.

I have dealt with Furuno USA, located in Camas, Washington and been very pleased with their support. It probably helps to stop by and talk with their tech person face to face.

Bill

[El and Bill]

We have a 2000 Furuno radar and it has worked well in salt and fresh, near and far ranges, and sure been helpful (like a few weeks back when, tummies full of good steak and shrimp, we were following the Byrdmen through Ol' Hickory Lake to an anchorage, in the black of the night). Mike, by the way, with only his knowledge of the lake, landed us directly on the green mark into the narrow channel -- so we'd recommend Mike over either Furuno or Garmin.
Our nav system is Garmin -- simply the best, proven again here on the Cumberland where it's spot on and the Navionics on another boat (name not to be mentioned) has the boat moving backwards over land (really!). Without exception, when cruising with other boats with alternate nav systems, the Garmin has always proved superior. Not trying to pick a fight, merely reporting the facts as we have observed them. We think the best comparison is on the water, directly, one on one.
Don't know anything about the new Garmin radar -- we're always a little suspect of brand-new anything, though.

[Pat Anderson]

And most of the EQ-equipped boats (Daydream, Anna Leigh and Bess-C to be included soon) sport Raymarine!

But I think a clarification is in order - the nav system is a combination of the hardware/firmware/software (GPS / chartplotter, maybe radar) and digital charts - Navionics just provides the digital charts, and it is up to the GPS / chartplotter to show where the vessel is on the chart and how it is moving. So I don't think Navionics had the boat moving backwards over land - the GPS / chartplotter did (you didn't mention what brand that was).

We have been very happy with the Garmin Bluechart charts on the Garmin 188C, which on visual comparison seem to be superior in clarity and detail to the others, and although the 188C went with the old Daydream, we still have the Garmin Mapsource software and the Bluechart Seattle region on the laptop, which with the new GPS puck (as well as new Rose Point software and NOAA charts for the world outside our Bluechart coverage!) will be the backup for the Raymarine C80, and primary until the Raymarine is installed.

I don't know anything about Furuno, it was a choice for us between the new Garmin system, a 3006 or 3010 with the new Garmin radar, or the Raymarine C80 with the proven radar. Like you, we do not want to be the "beta testers" for anybody, and Garmin radar is definitely unproven in use on the water at this point. So, with Dusty chosing Raymarine, so did we, which means Navionics charts rather than Garmin Bluecharts. We'll just have to hold our breath on that one I guess.

I think the MOST important thing these days, if you are buying a nav system with radar, is to take advantage of one of the integrated systems that lets you have the radar overlay the GPS / chartplotter display on the same screen, so you don't have to mentally integrate what you are seeing on two separate screens.

[El and Bill]

The chartplotter that is running the boat backwards and overland is a Raymarine C-80 with Navionics software. The Garmin 2006C with Blue Chart software, is, as we have always found it to be, spot on.

[El and Bill]

Been doing some checking on the Raymarine/Navionics problem -- the GPS fix correlates well with three other GPS units at the same location. Problem is with the Navionics software.

[Pat Anderson]

The Navionics isn't software - it is just a digital chart, the problem must have been somewhere in the RayMarine unit, which is where the software lives...

[El and Bill]

Sorry, Pat, I assumed software drove both the hardware of the RayMarine system and that separate software drove the charting function ... sorta like software runs my computer's operating system, but software also runs my programs. My mistake.
So, guess I should say the GPS as given by lat. long. is accurate, but the location on the Navionics chart is seriously wrong. Bottom line -- I'm sure glad I'm not navigating here with that chartplotter.

[Casey]

Here is something else to consider....

Two years ago I studied-the-market and finally decided to buy a RayMarine integrated system that uses C-Map NT+ cartographic chips. Although I LOVE the RayMarine hardware, I confess that my experience with C-Map is less than stellar. Don't get me wrong, C-Map "works," but compared to Garmin Bluecharts I think Bluechart is better. (However, RayMarine/Bluechart was not an option.) ...so we made use of the RayMarine/C-Map and made the best of it.

Two (...only two) years later....

RayMarine and C-Map appear to have had a rcent business falling-out, and Raymarine no longer offers C-Map as a charting choice. Down-the-road this cannot have a positive impact on RayMarine's level of customer support, repairs, etc.

Meanwhile, C-Map, in an effort to remain competitive in the marketplace is changing what they manufacture as well. At the moment C-Map is still making chips in the NT+ category, but they have already cutback. Earlier, they offered "Superwide" NT+ chips that although expensive, covered a sizeable area and represented a decent dollar-value. No more. C-Maps "new" chip line is the C-MAX; and of course it won't work on my two-year "old" RayMarine hardware!

I suppose one could look at this as the march of technology, where obsolescence comes quicker and quicker. I, on the otherhand, am finding it damn expensive. Our options, at this point, seem to be: (1) buy most of the NT+ chips I anticipate wanting over the next few years NOW (before they are no longer available, [and boat very carefully using outdated charts]). Or (2) make an even more expensive leap to an entirely new hardware system (and experience the same situation a few years in the future?).

The teaching-point of my diatribe (relevant to this thread) is that when one is making initial purchase decisions, I urge you to consider: (1) do you really want a fully integrated system? When they work, they are Fantastic, but you are putting many of your eggs in one basket. If breakdowns occur - LOTS of stuff isn't going to work. And, if a business breakdown occurs between the manufacturer (ie. RayMarine) and a manufacturer's supplier (ie. C-Map); you may be left holding a bag full of expensive but unsupported pieces-parts. Think about it. If you want a fully integrated system, I urge you to consider a manufacturer that controls the entire process. No, I'm not a shill for Garmin, but it's unlikely that Garmin's new (integrated) system will have it's cartographic rug pulled out from under it very soon since Garmin also supplies the charting data for the hardware. (2) If you opt for a non-integrated array you may loose an individual piece here and there, but hopefully you won't face system-wide disruption.

I guess we can look at the bright side. With gas prices on the rise we won't need to many charts because we won't be travelling as far!

Swell.

Casey
C-Dory Naknek

(if you're a Raymarine/C-Map owner, check out my thread on the Electronics forum: "Good News / Bad News")

[digger]

Garmin is just as bad. They discontinued support on the Garmin 180 which uses micro-G chips for the charting. I think it is just a way when business starts to wane that they, the manufacturers can put the squeeze on boaters to buy new products. I had to go to ebay to find someone that had a micro-G for the Puget Sound area. Don't even think that what we currently have will be supported after a few years. Current manufacturers know that they can squeeze us at any time they see fit. Ron

[Pat Anderson]

OK, here is my fearless prediction - ALL these guys are going to be swept aside by SOMEBODY who figures out that an integrated system that uses NOAA vector charts that you can download from a computer to a blank chip or cartridge would sell like gangbusters!

[Casey]

Pat,

I completely agree. Although NOAA doesn't yet have "everything" vector charted, they'r working on it. From what I understand NOAA's agenda is priority driven, according to the needs of commercial shipping. (Guess it may be a while 'til they get to doing a vector chart for Lake Powell....)

Virtually all of the commercial manufacturer's use NOAA vector data as their starting point for producing their cartography. With that in mind, how can their products be SO expensive; much of the background work has already been done by NOAA ! (And then they have the audacity to tell me that my $299 [obsolete] C-Map SuperWide chip is not to be used for navigation! Sure.) As you said - at some point a manufacturer will develop a plotter that uses NOAA data and the other's will will go: "...duh?"

I suspect the folks at NAVMAN are looking at that option. The folks at FUGAWI software already produce a computer nagivation program that utilized NOAA data (as well as several other data types...). It's decent software, and the NOAA data can be downloaded for free. Free is good.

Technology's on the March, for Sure!

Casey
C-Dory Naknek

[squidslayer]

The Bottom line is

Raymarine is made by a British Corp and are designed for SPORTSMEN

Furuno is made in Japan and is designed for COMMECIAL FISHERMEN AND SHIPS

So do you would you buy a British CAR
or a
Japanese CAR????

CAPT DICK

[drjohn71a]

I chose the Raymarine E Series. The Furuno has incredibly sophisticated systems, but it was more difficult for me to get a reasonably priced system. I know Furuno is better in many ways, but the Raymarine already has in place all the key features I need for a reasonable price. The Garmin 3210 has a great proportion in the screen for small windowed C-Dories.

Most of these systems now have the ability to Ethernet with a laptop which can be loaded with most of the new software mapping versions, even to the point of just having the GPS antenna plugged into the laptop directly. As such, it is much less likely that a software change will leave you out in the cold. That was a problem unique to having all the info in a proprietory display. Raymarine's RNS 6.0 software in your laptop can read either type of map chip if you use the optional chip plugger inner thing to your laptop.

I chose the Raymarine based upon many factors. Mainly, they make a system designed for my uses. Three different electronics installers suggested the Raymarine as the best for my needs at this time. This is not to say that they do not suggest the Furuno or other manufacturers for other customers. There is no big benefit to having $30,000 worth of electronics on a small recreational boat for most people.

The people who are installing my system report reliable performance from past customers using this system, ease of upgrading, ease of integration to other systems, and ease of trouble-shooting complex systems by staying in the same manufacturer. Yes, most of the big players can hook up to other big players' units. However, if there is a problem, it can be a bit tougher to ferret it out, or synchronize, with mixed units.

Some of the Raymarine displays have had a problem, but were swapped out at not charge when that occurred. I think Garmin gives the beginner more good stuff in the package deal on their 3210 units and their cheapest 2K radar has a slightly narrower beam than the Raymarine 4K radar. BUT - Garmin's is a NEW radar..... so who knows?

Also, Raymarine is designing stuff which I'd like to have, like the new little unit that your clip on your lifejacket so , if you fall overboard, it allerts the helm display and can be set to stop your boat or go into some autopilot pattern. A boon to single handers, or fishermen!

Good luck, have fun! John