Newly installed trim tabs - problems

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From: orca (Original Message) Sent: 9/9/2003 12:35 PM
I just installed Trim Master 12X12 tabs on my '85 22' Angler. They work great into head seas, but when a sea (no matter how small) comes anywhere aft of beam, I start to cork-screw (for a lack of a better description). The boat will start to roll and dive either right or left depending upon the direction of the wave, and have a strong reaction until I pull off power. Even if I trim all the way up, I still have this reaction, but to a lesser degree.

This makes for a long afternoon on some of these Lake Superior runs.

Some of the "salts" around the marina say that because I didn't "square off" the transom (the older C-Doys have a curved transom, the tabs are somewhat "duck-footed" and that could be the problem.

Have any of you had this problem and what did you do to solve it?

ORCA

From: Da_Nag™ Sent: 9/9/2003 3:30 PM
A few things come to mind - just guesses on my part, make sure and consult C-Dory and TrimMaster.

- How far do they retract? As I recall, my TrimMaster installation instructions suggested one inch above level with the hull at the trailing edge of the tab. I've got 12x9's - there may be a larger differential with 12x12's required.

- You can probably get away with 12x9's - they provide plenty of adjustability on my CD19, and would have 25% less surface area to be affected by following seas. Good news is, TrimMaster told me they have the same screw and piston mounting pattern as the 12x12's, so swapping them out would probably be relatively easy. Also, TrimMaster may swap them out for free if you decide to go this route - they offered this to me when I purchased mine, just in case the 12x9's were too small.

- Can you move them any further inboard? This might make them less effective, but there may be less leverage on the hull if they aren't as far out. Obviously, this would be the least desireable option, as you would have holes to patch, and new ones to drill.

Good luck, let us know how it goes.

Bill

From: Mike Sent: 9/9/2003 8:26 PM
The tabs on my 22' Crusier will make the boat act squirelly with the seas pushing it if they are anything but fully raised. With them all the way retracted, though, the effect is minimal.

Mine is the newer style hull, and the tabs are pretty square to the world. You might be onto to something with the "duck foot" condition. Roger up north had a set of tabs to put on his older hull style 22 Angler. He was planning to cut a couple of wedges out of some tough plastic material to square them up. I don't know if he has got that far yet.

Greg the Red Fox has a lot of experience with huge tabs on his older style hull. He will see this soon and tell you what he has learned.

One of the members on this site is danthetrimtabman, and he is a principal with the TrimMaster company. I will drop him a quick email and ask him to weigh in here. He has been helpful in the past, not only with questions about his product but with trim tab science in general. Great guy to have on board.

Another thing I discovered real quick with my tabs is how much more they react to a lightly loaded stern. The first time I tried them I had left my kicker motor off and it was a lot more erratic than with the weight of the little motor hanging back there. If you have a lot of weight forward in your bow, that could be picking the stern a little higher out of the water and making it act cockeyed, too.

You'll get it figured out soon enough, and be very glad you stuck those tabs on!

Mike

From: Mike Sent: 9/9/2003 8:32 PM
OK - I emailed Dan. I'm sure we'll hear from him soon. If not, I guess we can try bobthebennettsporttabguy!

From: orca Sent: 9/11/2003 8:51 AM
Thank you all for a quick response. I did talk to Dan the trim tab man, and it was new to him. He even talked with his father who thought it might be the angle problem.

I have bottom blisters that will be dealt with over the winter so the tabs will come off for the sanding and Barrierkote. This spring, I will put on wedges and reinstall the tabs and pistons. I did install them correctly (3/4" higher than hull alignment at trailing edge), but this time will do twice that to help get them out of the way when running with the seas. Hopefully that coupled with proper alignment will give me the best of all worlds. I still have 50 lbs. of birdshot in the bow. That will go too. Then I will only have to worry about the occassional birdshot in my tail!

What I have to come to now is what to use for the wedges, plastic, Starboard, teak or good-old pressure treated wood covered with epoxy Barrierkote.

I'm anxious to hear any other theories and suggestions.

ORCA

From: Redƒox Sent: 9/11/2003 10:03 AM
This sounds to me like too much weight in the bow and too little in the stern, most likely the second suggestion. I recommend a heavy stern for the large tabs. Mine are 12 by 16 and I did not "square them" at all.

What motors do you have on her? where is the fuel being carried in the cockpit? On mine I have lot's of fuel as far back as it will go, and that contraption on the stern to keep my weight consistently heavy back there. It is a must for the trailing sea conditions! I also removed my Stingray hydrofoil one the main engine just for the handling problem you are describing, it helped, but I get more cavitations going on.

I'll probably be back with more as the questions and suggestions keep coming.

Greg

From: orca Sent: 9/20/2003 11:10 AM
Hi Greg
Sorry for the delay in getting back I like your thoughts.

I will get the birdshot out of the bow and into the birds where it belongs. Then, I will remove the hydrofoil.

I have a Honda 75 (no kicker on the back end) and a 55 gal custom tank under and just in front of the motorwell. My waterline on the transom is just at the top of the piston brackets on the transom (when at-rest). I have lots of weight in the cockpit (but not as much as you!).

My motor is mounted on a sliding height adjuster. I might need to keep the motor deeper and away from any tabwash.

I will be using it again this week and will lighten the bow, remove the motor foil and play with motor height. I will report back.

Thanks for your input.

Hey ... I'm impressed with your photos (quality and quantity!). You are quite the arteeest! I've done a fair amount of photography myself and I enjoy seeing your work.

Tom on ORCA

From: Redƒox¶ Sent: 9/21/2003 10:09 AM
Your most welcome Tom. I bet your too stern lite for that Hydrofoil to be employed along with the trim tabs. I think you could benefit from the added weight of a heavy kicker to. Hey if you ever get around to taking some pix, I would love to see that custom tank! I wanted one for my 22 Classic to, but for now settled for a plastic (55) drum... I love it! but I will get a TIG welder some day and make one that fits inside that well and extends outward into the cockpit, hugging the motor well as tight as possible.
You know... I still would like a fin on the main engine since I cavitate more with out one and I like the extra amount of control I have into a choppy sea. I do have to trim it down a 'scoshe' more with it removed. I was going to make a smaller one (not so much lift) out of some stainless steel (if I can talk old Mike into sending me a 1ft by 1.5 foot piece of 1/4 inch left over mill stuff .. hint hint I'll pay the postage old boy
Greg

From: orca Sent: 9/21/2003 10:43 AM
Hello Red Fox

During visitation this week, I will shoot a digital of my tank and try to post it for you to see. I measured it to fit under the well (trapizoidal), but extends out another six inches and up to the top of the well. As I remember (six years ago) West Marine had their vendor make it from 5052 aluminum. The gauge doesn't give a good read, but I've learned 2/3rd empty on the gauge is only 1/2 empty in realtime.

Think about 5086 aluminum for your hydrofoil. It's marine grade, strong and stiff enough, and easier to cut and drill than SS. Plus, you would find it easier to "shape" a bit to add some lift. Just a thought.

Tom

From: Redƒox Sent: 9/21/2003 12:56 PM
Yeh I think your right! I actually was thinking (1/8th) stainless so I could go with something thinner and less corrosive, but if old TyBoo wants to send me some free stuff, I'll have to go that rout
I am looking forward to your tank pic, it sounds exactly like I want. I could always throw that 55 galon cube of mine in the truck! or for real long boat cruises! I used to carry two 55 drums back in my Johnson 140 days!... 2.15 to 2.5 miles per gallon, back then.

From: orca Sent: 9/24/2003 7:20 AM
TRIM TABS : THE GOOD NEWS IS .......

Red Fox, you are a wise old dog! Removing the hydrofoil solved the corkscrewing problem and ORCA now once again performs like a champ.

We drove four hours to the boat, launched and toured the Duluth Harbor in 15-25 kt winds and everything was great after removing the foil. Apparently too much of a good thing is still too much. How long does it take to learn that! My dad was right again.

Thanks for your help Greg. Your commentary put it all in perspective and the problem is solved. Now, I heartily endorse trim tabs over the foil system. They work as great as most others testify.

Now for the bad news. My digital camers died up there and I left the Contac/Zeiss system home. So, I will have to describe my tank for you. As you know, the underside of the splashwell on older C-D's tapers back to the transom. I considered the inside of that area as a trapazoidal box and measure for dimensions inside that area. I then reduced the height dimensions by one inch as I wanted to place four 1/2"x 2" pressure treated strips of wood so the tank could breathe and dry out.

However, I added six inches to the front of this trapazoid (extended the tank out in front of the well) and up to the top of the splashwell. This doubles, approximately the tankage and does not take up too much more of the cockpit. On the top of that six inch x 24" (approx. or whatever the the width of the well is) mounted is the filler cap and the hose connection.

When I slide the tank under the well (on top of the wood strips) I found that it was solid and stable in there. I didn't have to use metal straps to keep it under the well and have to worry about them chaffing through. Instead, I cut a 2x2 pressure treat wood to the width of the tank, and bedded it with 3M 4200 and four SS screws into the floor. It's been in place since '98 and hasn't moved.

I hope I painted a clear enough word-picture for you. Sorry about no photo, but for sure when I get back up to the boat next spring. Right now, on to Montana for some bird hunting and jeeping!

Tom on ORCA

From: SpacelabCheers Sent: 9/24/2003 7:47 AM
Orca
Sounds like your tank is similar to mine. Holds 52 gal. on my '84 Angler. Copy of photos sent usc.

From: Redƒox Sent: 9/25/2003 7:30 PM
Tom, you are welcome, shoosh you made my day in fact! it feels good to have ones advice validated like that, I'm happy to share my experience and have it bless others. It sure pays to bang away at these keyboards don't it:D

Now after seeing your tank, I know for sure I'm going that route, it takes up so much less room than my cube barrel and looks nice to boot! Hey are your bilges accessed by an inspection port? or are they in the cockpit in the corners by the drain plugs? Oh yeah I forgot, not all Classics have 2 drains them.

Hey I would like to post that shot in the fuel systems photo album here, if you don't mind.

So you have Zeiss and Contax huh.... wow!
greg

From: orca Sent: 10/14/2003 6:09 PM
Hi Red Fox: Sorry for the delay in answering your last message. Montana/WY were occupying my time.

ORCA has the twin bilge drains. But, I built a redwood seat on the starboard side of the cockpit that runs from the bulkhead to the transom. I have cut an access port in it over the drainplug and to also service the bilge pump which is mounted at the base of the transom to starboard.

Yeah ... Contax/Zeiss (German). Lucked into a deal with a pro leaving the business so bought his two RTS 11 bodies, a 28MM,35MM,50MM,85MM135MM and 200MM for what you would pay for one lense today. They are all fast lenses to boot. I have since added a 300 MM Zeiss(Japanese) and a 2X. Now, I just need to shoot more.

Will be retiring this year and thinking about shooting interesting series for boaters like us giving an insight to certain area. Photos of the marinas and launch sites and unique beauty of the area might be of interesst to CD's. I might try that for the Apostle Islands next spring and post to see if it helps people. Then, as we travel more to other areas, do the same to maybe encourage more of us to use the unique portability of our boats. Anyhow, it's a thought and another of my daydreams!

Tom
PS ... have a good winter ... Brrrrrrrrrr!

From: Sawdust Sent: 10/15/2003 4:16 PM
Great glass, ORCA --

My big stuff is Nikon, but carry a Contax G2 with three lenses. Top quality glass, and I think none better.

Dusty

From: Redƒox Sent: 10/15/2003 10:45 PM
Tom, sounds great, I hope you actually get to do the photo/info, shoot, some day.
Hey if you ever get around to it, I would love to see some pix of your.. red wood seat. I think that's a great idea for some.
Tnx for getting back... better late than never... that's me...

From: orca Sent: 10/20/2003 8:29 AM
Will shoot you a photo of the seat next spring. Right now ORCA is in the beauty shop getting her bottom tended to (blisters sanded off). In the spring, after she dries out, a BarrierKote will be added as well as bottom paint. She should be a spiffy gal when the ice goes out!

Have a good winter. Again, thanks for your help.

Tom on ORCA