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Big Mac
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 189 City/Region: Chehalis
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2001
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Mary Ellen
Photos: Mary Ellen
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Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:02 pm Post subject: Rub Rail Instalation |
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I have a 2001 C-Dory 22' crusier. It appears to me that the rub rail was put on with some type of thru hull bolts. Their are bumps that protrude on the inside of the hull (they stick out about 3/4") that appear to be where the rub rail is bolted. It has a putty type compount that is painted with the interior gel coat. Anyone know if this is how they were attached in the past? |
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Swee Pea
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 403 City/Region: Bath
State or Province: NC
C-Dory Year: 2004
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Swee Pea
Photos: Swee Pea
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Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:18 am Post subject: Rub Rail Revisited |
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Today I noticed that my rub rail is beginning to pull away from the boat in one place, about 1/8". I can look behind the metal portion of the rub rail and see the grey rivit. Searching the site, I found that the fix involves drilling out the rivit and either installing a new rivit or a machine screw, washer, and nut. Does anyone have a photo of the finished product as it appears from the inside of the boat? Like the rest, the original install has each rivit coated on the inside and then covered with the sprayed gel coat or interior paint. Just wanted to see how some of you who repaired the rub rail finished off the inside. My rub rail is not yet a big problem, but I am just planning for the future.
John
Swee Pea |
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Dora~Jean
Joined: 09 Mar 2004 Posts: 1511 City/Region: Simi Valley
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Dora~Jean
Photos: Dora~Jean
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Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:46 am Post subject: |
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This subject has been addressed before, but I didn't pay much attention to it since mine was fine.
Now I've noticed mine has pulled out farther this last season, about 3/8", now I consider it a possible water intrusion problem (between the fiberglass layer). I think it is due to the different expansion/contraction properties of the aluminum rail vs the fiberglass hull. I plan to drill out all of the rivets from about the windshield area forward (where it curves). I will then see how much access I have to either refill the holes with epoxy or seal with something like 5200. I'd prefer epoxy because I have a feeling the new holes I drill thru the existing rubrail holes into the hull won't line up after the rub rail is flattened against the hull. I'll use 1/4" SS machine screws with washers and nylock nuts, then paint to match on the inside.
At least that's my plan... _________________ Steve & Carmen
"Great works are performed not by strength, but perseverance" (Samuel Johnson)
Dora~Jean C-Dory 25 2002-Present
Corsair F-31 Trimaran 1996-2002
MacGregor 26X 1988-1996
Glaspar Seafair Sedan 18 (2)
StarCraft 19 & 22
Catalina 17 & 22
Crestliner 19
+4 Previous, 1/2 sail, 1/2 power |
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Sea Wolf
Joined: 01 Nov 2003 Posts: 8650 City/Region: Redding
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 1987
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sea Wolf
Photos: Sea Wolf
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Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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Here are some thoughts I'll share with you.
Don't use aluminum pop rivets, they're much to soft, and the origin of the problem in the first place. If using rivets, use 3/16" Monel or Stainless Steel.
Unless you want to completely disassemble the rail to clean underneath it, replace only one rivet at a time for ease of alignment and operation.
If using machine screws, #10-24 or #10-32 in stainless should be adequate.
One central issue is how to minimize the size of the rivet heads, screw heads, nuts, or rivet shanks inside and outside.
Small bumps under the rubber rail will hide easily, but inside you want to keep the fastener heads from sticking out and becoming meat hooks or ugly bumpkins.
I'd first try to back rivet the rail from the inside so only the heads of the rivets would show, but this would require some help from a second person and some exact length rivets that just barely make a strong bond with the aluminum molding rail on the outside. I'd also use a Monel or stainless washer to secure the fastener fully rather than just riveting them to the soft aluminum, providing the height of the completed package would fit neatly under the rubber insert. Technically, zinc chromate paste should be used at any dissimilar metal junction like this, but using a weather seal compound would take precedence and using both would be difficult.
If using machine screws, the nuts would have to go on the inside, and the screw length should be just long enough to set firmly into the nylon part of the NyLock nuts. The NyLocks are smooth enough that their finish should be acceptable as long as the ends of the screws don't protrude.
Be sure to seal the hole and whichever fastener you use up with a sealant, e.g., 3M 4200, 5200, or something equally waterproof and able to seal the shafts against the sides of the holes, and of course, the hollow openings of the rivet shafts if you use them.
Some experimentation will probably be necessary to find the optimum solution.
Another thought: the rubber rail frequently pops out when "kissing" the dock with a firm landing approach.
I'd consider embedding the rubber insert in the aluminum molding with a rubber sealant, perhaps like a windshield sealer, to prevent these "nuisance" dislodgings of the rubber insert.
Just some thoughts to sort through from the bottom of the Cracker Jack Box!
Joe. _________________ Sea Wolf, C-Brat #31
Lake Shasta, California
"Most of my money I spent on boats and women. The rest I squandered'. " -Annonymous |
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Dora~Jean
Joined: 09 Mar 2004 Posts: 1511 City/Region: Simi Valley
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Dora~Jean
Photos: Dora~Jean
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Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:00 am Post subject: |
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Joe, appreciate your thoughts, always welcome. I haven't removed any of the rivets yet, but all will have to come out from about the windshield forward to the tip because the aluminum rail is bowing out considerably, it is too long to try and plant back against the hull. I figure I may have to cut off 1/8 to 1/4" at the end when it gets secured. I will do like you said, buy SS bolts (either 10/24 or 1/4") probably pan head or other small protruding head so that the rubber fits correctly. The bolts will protrude on the inside, but right under my windlass wiring, so it really won't be noticeable, especially if I paint them to match.
Maybe will get to it this weekend, not sure. I'll post my results. |
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journey on
Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 3598 City/Region: Valley Centre
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: journey on
Photos: Journey On
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Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:18 am Post subject: |
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Steve,
If you want to use 5200 it's $11 a 10oz. cartridge @ Home Depot. $5 for the tube. Unfortunately that's all of the 3M sealers they have. West Marine wants $20 for the cartridge.
Boris |
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Dora~Jean
Joined: 09 Mar 2004 Posts: 1511 City/Region: Simi Valley
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Dora~Jean
Photos: Dora~Jean
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Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:32 am Post subject: |
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Boris, thanks! Didn't even think to look at Home Depot. When I think of 3M's 5200, I immediately associate Worse Marine. Gee, I may have to use 5200 on more projects... |
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jimcinfra
Joined: 10 May 2006 Posts: 76 City/Region: Crystal Springs, MS
State or Province: MS
C-Dory Year: 1999
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Delta Belle
Photos: Delta Belle
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Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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Delta Belle also has this problem with her rub rail. Did the fixes work that were talked about in this thread?
Is it possible to use a screw (along with a washer) small enough to fit inside the rivet tube body to tighten down the rail from the outside? Would the aluminum body of the rivet be too soft to support the threads of a screw inside it?
Also, there seems to be a gap of 1/16" between the hull and the top sides behind the rub rail. Is this normal? I plan to fill with 5200 to seal.
Please let me know which fix worked best.
Thanks. _________________ Delta Belle
Crystal Srings, MS |
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cemiii
Joined: 26 Feb 2008 Posts: 419 City/Region: Alamo
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 1987
C-Dory Model: 22 Angler
Vessel Name: The Last One........ III
Photos: The Last One, III
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Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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The local Wal Mart carries 5200 and 4200 both somewhere in the $6 and change range for the squeeze tube size, they also carry 2 part marine epoxy that mixes gray in color @$3 something. All in their little boating dept.
Chris |
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Sea Wolf
Joined: 01 Nov 2003 Posts: 8650 City/Region: Redding
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 1987
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sea Wolf
Photos: Sea Wolf
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Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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jimcinfra wrote: | Delta Belle also has this problem with her rub rail. Did the fixes work that were talked about in this thread?
Is it possible to use a screw (along with a washer) small enough to fit inside the rivet tube body to tighten down the rail from the outside? Would the aluminum body of the rivet be too soft to support the threads of a screw inside it?
Also, there seems to be a gap of 1/16" between the hull and the top sides behind the rub rail. Is this normal? I plan to fill with 5200 to seal.
Please let me know which fix worked best.
Thanks. |
I think the best fix is to drill out the pop rivets one at a time and replace them with 10-24 or 10-32 stainless machine screws. Use countersunk screws with fender washers on the inside and aircraft (Nylock) nuts. Keep the screws just long enough to get the threads started so the amount of screw that protrudes after tightening doesn't make a dangerous "meat-hook" to snag people inside. Add 4200 to the hole and to the screw before assembling in order to water seal the fasteners and hole off. If the threads are dangerously protruding after assembly, add a second Nylock nut, or an acorn nut (usually expensive), or a dab of silicone over the screw end to blunt the sharp end and threads.
If the screws are too far apart to cinch the rub rail up to a snug fit, add some more screws between the existing ones following the same procedure. If doing so, you may have to completely remove the strip and drill the stainless rail with the new holes, and then use a punch to indent the stainless rail to accommodate the counter sunk machine screw heads.
Stainless or Monel pop rivets will also work, but you definitely have to have a second person on the boat's inside (you can use a pair of Vice-Grips to hold the nuts on machine screws if working alone). Aluminum rivets are much too weak and soft. The big problem here is getting the rivets to tighten up correctly when setting them, and, secondly, if you have to remove the rail, then they all have to be drilled out, etc. Not only does this waste time and $$$, but the holes in the fiberglass get a little bigger each time you drill out the rivets, etc.
There's nothing wrong with using a sealant to make a nice looking fit between the rail and the boat, but if you have to disassemble the rail to straighten it for some reason (like bent in a dock collision), it's a much harder job with the sealer all over the rail parts.
If we're talking 3/16" pop rivets, the inside hole that the mandrill fits in will only allow about a #4 machine screw, and there's not enough strength in a #4 screw to hold the rail firmly when the rail is hit hard. If the rivets are aluminum, get rid of them and do it right with machine screws and be done with it.
Incidently, my black plastic insert gets knocked loose and comes out of the metal moulding rail sometimes when hitting the dock hard, etc. I've thought about sealing it in place with 3M 4200 or similar, but decided against it after considering how hard it would be to disassemble the rail for repairs, etc.
My $0.02 for free.
Joe. |
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Dora~Jean
Joined: 09 Mar 2004 Posts: 1511 City/Region: Simi Valley
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Dora~Jean
Photos: Dora~Jean
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Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, nothing to report, it moved 'down' on THE LIST, or I'm secretly still procrastinating... |
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mikeporterinmd
Joined: 15 Sep 2006 Posts: 645
State or Province: MD
C-Dory Year: 2002
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Shelly IV
Photos: Shelly-IV
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Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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One idea I'd like to offer: Use #10 stainless screws with nyloc on the
inside. Don't worry about the length initially, but rather come back
later and use a Dremmel with a cutoff wheel to get the screws to the
exact length needed. Maybe even #8.
I'm going to have to do this too, since I have nearly 1/4" between the
rail and the hull. I suspect that the aluminum is actually too long, so
I may cut out a piece... we'll see.
Mike |
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ghone
Joined: 13 Aug 2008 Posts: 1429 City/Region: Nanaimo
State or Province: BC
C-Dory Year: 2011
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Kerri On
Photos: Kerri On
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Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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Hi guys, with the change in ownership at CDory is there anyone who is aware if the treatment of the rubrail has been addressed, for new boats? It's an important addition.
On a similar topic does anyone know if the hulls and decks are still being joined in the "old" way while still in the mold? I've seen some old posts that lead me to think the joint had changed to a more common shoe box type.
The keeping of the new parts longer in the mold and then joining them is one reason my wife and I are awaiting a new 19. Ours is currently in the "sanding" stage. Can't wait to get out there.
George |
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Sea Wolf
Joined: 01 Nov 2003 Posts: 8650 City/Region: Redding
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 1987
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sea Wolf
Photos: Sea Wolf
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Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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ghone wrote: | Hi guys, with the change in ownership at CDory is there anyone who is aware if the treatment of the rubrail has been addressed, for new boats? It's an important addition.
On a similar topic does anyone know if the hulls and decks are still being joined in the "old" way while still in the mold? I've seen some old posts that lead me to think the joint had changed to a more common shoe box type.
The keeping of the new parts longer in the mold and then joining them is one reason my wife and I are awaiting a new 19. Ours is currently in the "sanding" stage. Can't wait to get out there.
George |
George-
The shoebox construction method has been discussed before. See:
New construction method?
Joe. |
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ghone
Joined: 13 Aug 2008 Posts: 1429 City/Region: Nanaimo
State or Province: BC
C-Dory Year: 2011
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Kerri On
Photos: Kerri On
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Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:19 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the heads up Joe.
George |
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